Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

  1. #1

    Jade's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Hell on Earth
    Posts
    9,831
    Rep Power
    5358377
      Country                    United States

    Money in the Bank Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    Another year has come and gone, and with it a Money in the Bank PPV and a successful cash-in. As always, the MITB briefcase has produced a tailor-made WWE Moment™, resulting in Big E getting his well-deserved coronation at the top of the food chain. But has a history of MITB cash-ins and follow-ups dulled expectations for Big E's reign? Has the idea of the MITB briefcase as a stepping stone toward the main event been damaged by overuse and oversaturation?

    There's something to be said for how MITB has changed the way WWE elevates their talent. Pre-2005 your best chance to be moved up the card was to win the Royal Rumble (often resulting in a guaranteed title win on the biggest stage), win King of the Ring (usually used to indicate a more serious investment in a mid-carder), or through just good ol' fashioned upward booking. Someone like Stone Cold Steve Austin used a cocktail of all three of these methods, winning KOTR to establish himself as a future star, feuding for months with high profile talent like Bret Hart, and then eventually winning a Royal Rumble to push him into the main spot at Mania for a well-deserved and thoroughly earned championship run. Steve Austin to this day remains the blueprint for pushing a talent to the top, showcasing him with a slow-but-not-too-slow burn to the top as he got more and more over, winning midcard titles and special event matches along the way.

    The invention of the Money in the Bank concept has undoubtedly changed the game, creating a shortcut, a loophole, where WWE is allowed to bypass all the annoying effort it takes to build a star, instead giving them the option to have a guy win one match, steal the championship, and give them a trial run at the top for better or worse. Many superstars actually won their first world championship as a result of the MITB conceit, which is fine if the point is to elevate, but often times these title wins don't feel like elevations. When you watch someone like Stone Cold Steve Austin win his first world title, or John Cena, or for a more recent example Kofi Kingston, it felt like a legitimate coronation by the time it happened. Even Kingston's, something of a hot-shot main event push with just a couple of months of build, happened in such an authentic and well built way that it was impossible not to be satisfied with his rise to the top. By contrast, the over one-third of superstars who have won their first championship with the briefcase, often feel surprising certainly, but rarely have the punch of a long-time midcarder who has struggled their way to the top. They feel fluky almost by design, because the briefcase has been established as something you use as a surprise. This has never been more clear than when a beloved babyface in Big E used the briefcase for a cheap cash-in on the heel champion Bobby Lashley. Like so many before him, Big E got a big pop and a big moment for his title win, but unlike Austin, Cena, or Kingston, his coronation does not feel earned or authentic. He does not feel like the guy on his show. Bobby Lashley does.

    Frankly this isn't a new trend. Almost no one who cashed in the briefcase for their first championship has felt like a big deal within minutes of doing it. Edge, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan, three men who went onto be forces in the main event scene, did not do so on their Money in the Bank reigns. In a way their initial championships were like Austin's Intercontinental title win, or Cena's U.S. championship reign before them. Edge, Punk, and Bryan were champions sure, but they did not feel like the biggest guy on brand. It was only when each of those three men ended up in well booked, earned title programs down the line, that each seriously became a main eventer. And the not-so-lucky ones? The Miz, Jack Swagger, and Dolph Ziggler never felt like a big deal when they held their world title, and each never really got another shot. The Money in the Bank contract did not establish them, it just highlighted them long enough so WWE could catch a glimpse of a frowning girl in a crowd. In its short history the Women's briefcase hasn't fared much better, and this year's winner Nikki A.S.H. is already an afterthought.

    The Money in the Bank playbook needs to be thrown out. If the idea is to elevate talent with it, the time is now for a strong babyface to hold the briefcase, get some honest-to-god elevated booking, and use it to derail a heel champion on a fair playing field. It's no surprise that Rob Van Dam's cash-in remains one of the more perfectly executed in the briefcase's history. Even if you prefer to give it to a heel, the important thing is not to let the briefcase act as a supplement for good booking. If you wanna build up a heel with the briefcase, again take your time and give them some good programs to make their eventual coronation feel earned and important. In this case Seth Rollins is the rare positive example, since he held the briefcase for a long while and was a protected asset for some time. His heist resonated because of that, making Rollins feel like one of the few cash-ins who had earned his spot at the top, no surprise they saved it for Wrestlemania. Perhaps most importantly, it's time to just have fewer MITB matches. When you consider that the Royal Rumble still exists as the predominant way to accelerate a midcarder into the main event, the WWE now finds itself in the pressure spot of forcing themselves to push two people from each division into that big spot. The prestige of the Royal Rumble has mostly remained intact, but the briefcase is suffering, and a break from the conceit could make the formula feel much more special, and maybe make the next person to hold it feel like a much bigger deal. Perhaps you stagger the women's and men's matches so you only have one every other year? Whatever the play is, it's become clear that due to overexposure and half-hearted booking, the Money in the Bank briefcase now exists only to generate moments and not to generate stars, and if that's the WWE's intention then fair enough to them, but it's not the best way to use the concept, and it's a damn good concept.

    What do you think about the state of the MITB gimmick? Are you happy with getting two of these a year? Do we need more? Less? Should the gimmick be retired completely, or perhaps just put on hiatus? Are there other tweaks that could be made to make it stronger going forward? Unleash your thoughts, as I have clearly done mine.



    Silk's Big Dumb Video Game Thread
    | Silk's Degrassi Recaps
    Silk's Miscellaneous Match Reviews
    Queen of Dunks, Comic and Game Dork, Shoutbox Diva, #Iconic Hall of Famer
    #BlackLivesMatter
    Spoiler:



    [footnote: Is now the longest reigning WWE Champion in Smackdown history]


  2. #2
    The Only 2x WC HOF
    Shock's Avatar

    Status
    Online
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    25,217
    Rep Power
    6202606
      Country                    Scotland

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    I think the Money in the Bank gimmick ran its course after 2006 and since then has been a lazy crutch to get a pop and hotshot a title with little effort. Even when it's guys I like, such as Punk, Bryan or Big E, it still feels lazy and tired.

    I want the concept to go away forever. Its bad for stories and stops stars being built organically.

    Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Established Veteran
    Raye's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    2,758
    Rep Power
    1790827
      Country                    Canada

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    I don't think it's the MITB concept itself thats the problem, but the fact that they don't really do much with the MITB briefcase holder between the duration of them winning the briefcase and them cashing in.
    Vote on WC's Top 15 AEW Acts of 2021 Here:
    http://wrestlingclique.com/showthread.php?t=177261


  4. #4
    Internet Favorite
    Tommy Thunder's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Birmingham
    Posts
    2,201
    Rep Power
    549909
      Country                    Wales

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I don't think it's the MITB concept itself thats the problem, but the fact that they don't really do much with the MITB briefcase holder between the duration of them winning the briefcase and them cashing in.
    This is my opinion too. I'm fine with the concept but it's booking has been atrocious for so many years now. There's so many (obvious) different things that they could do wit it, it really amazes me how tey miss the boat with it year after year.

  5. #5
    The EST of WC
    CGS's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    22,598
    Rep Power
    956263
      Country                    Jamaica

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I don't think it's the MITB concept itself that's the problem, but the fact that they don't really do much with the MITB briefcase holder between the duration of them winning the briefcase and them cashing in.
    Came here to say exactly this. I'm a big supporter of MITB, i think the concept itself is a great idea and a nice way to try and elevate someone to the main event picture. The problem is that WWE just see the MITB Briefcase as an elevator in itself, and as such they do nothing to protect the talent once they've won it and continue to do 50/50 Booking or just fade them into obscurity until they are ready to give the fans a "moment" like what we saw with Big E on Monday night. Silk you mentioned Seth Rollins and i think he's a great example of what decent booking and great execution can do for an MITB winner. the pure execution was the same as we'd seen many times before, but because Rollins felt like a big deal and because he did it in the main event of Wrestlemania, it goes down as one of the most memorable cash-in ever.

    Similarly, I want to see more people take the RVD Route. I still don't understand why they didn't have someone cash in advance for the Wrestlemania main event. It's supposed to be the pinnacle of professional wrestling....and yet no one seems to want to put their name in lights and raise their stock ahead of time. its jut lazy booking from the WWE's part.

  6. #6
    World Champion
    indyfan's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    11,068
    Rep Power
    2185218

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I think the Money in the Bank gimmick ran its course after 2006 and since then has been a lazy crutch to get a pop and hotshot a title with little effort. Even when it's guys I like, such as Punk, Bryan or Big E, it still feels lazy and tired.

    I want the concept to go away forever. Its bad for stories and stops stars being built organically.

    Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk
    Agree 100% with this.

    After 2006...it lost its appeal. now theres ppvs and shit for it. They ruined the concept.
    Indyfans Top ROH matches has got you covered

  7. #7
    World Champion

    The EC's Avatar

    Status
    Online
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    14,082
    Rep Power
    5070226
      Country                    United States

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    Problem seems like a strong word for it, but it's definitely quickly been ran into the ground and mismanaged to the point where it feels cumbersome just as often as it feels interesting. When you do shit like put it on Otis (a lower card comedy act) only to pass it on to Miz (a jobber geek as ETE would call it), and have him cashing in only to get his ass beat weeks later... yeah, it hurts the briefcase. Just go with the conventional wisdom and put it on people you're ready to elevate to that next level and have a plan in place for how you're going to heat them up, get them that win, and what you're going to do with them afterwards.

  8. #8
    Fight The Power
    Jiggy's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Tampa, Fl
    Posts
    7,098
    Rep Power
    2830904

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    I always get excited over a Money in The Bank cash in but I don't like that over the last couple decades it's replaced King Of The Ring as the default star maker in the WWE. I don't think it needs it's own PPV, I actually quite liked it being the WM opener and it should go back to that

  9. #9
    Wordle Playing Admin

    Ed's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Dudley, England
    Posts
    41,832
    Rep Power
    9068994
      Country                    England

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    I'm not sure I'd call it a problem either, because it creates some of the only memorable moments of the year for WWE, but it's a short-term booking measure that I'd like to see retired for a bit.

    Big E was the right winner of the briefcase, and I liked the touch of him revealing before the episode started that he was cashing in to make it a bit more of a babyface move, but I'd prefer there to just be no MITB so Big E wins with more of a well planned out push that makes him feel like he's earned the world title and not a kid who won a raffle. At the end of the day, he's beaten a tired, one legged Lashley and I'm not convinced that WWE are truly getting behind Big E until he beats Lashley in the rematch.

    The use of it for the womens division is creatively lazy. 4 of the last 5 winners have cashed in within 2 days of winning the thing. It's just used to shake things up in the title scene rather than be a star making moment for someone. It wouldn't kill them to think of another story with the briefcase.
    ​​​​​ ​​​
    Ed's Favourite Threads
    Ed Reviews Everything l Ed's Kings Road Journey

    Ed's Top Matches of the Year Lists
    2016 l 2017 l 2018 l 2019 l 2020 l 2021


  10. #10
    Friendship King

    Smooth Jazz Wolf's Avatar

    Status
    Online
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    The Pillow Fort
    Posts
    8,247
    Rep Power
    4398263
      Country                    Australia

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    I do feel like the MITB case is overused for the lack of variation in ideas they have. It's already been pointed out that the vast majority of Women's MITB holders held it for less than a week before spontaneously cashing in. It reeks of hotshot booking with zero planning ahead. Look at Nikki A.S.H - wins MitB, cashes it on Charlotte, who instantly wins it back while making Nikki look like shit in the process - usual Charlotte move, go figure - then she's bumped into a tag team with Rhea Ripley. You could cut out the entire month of MITB/being champion and Nikki wouldn't be any different.

    Infact, let's look at Big E's cash in, more specifically the reasoning. I love Big E and hope he never changes - keep being this colourful man child who kicks ass, stay away from the cursed serious suited character for the love of god - but why now, of all days, did he choose to cash in? It was announced on the hellhole that is Twitter over the weekend. Why? To pop a rating, I guess. But in-universe, why? It's lazy writing. At MITB, Lashley borderline squashed Kingston for some asinine reason before Big E could win the briefcase. Why not cash in a day later, citing that as the reason why? I thought they were building Big E to be the one to unseat Roman Reigns, but suddenly he's not, soooooo shrug emoji.

    The real kicker is that there's so many possibilities with the MITB, but they only ever keep it to two or so ideas. There's never been a full-on 'face calling his shot at a predestined time' scenario - RVD is the closest thing, and even then it's slightly, slightly tainted. A face could call for a world title match in their hometown, essentially guaranteeing a hot crowd. Make it months in advance, use that time to judge how you'd think the MITB guy would go as a world champion, then pull the trigger. Hell, you could still play it spur-of-the-moment. Have the heel champion attack their opponent backstage and get the match cancelled. They come out and boast, cue Mr. MITB popping in like 'yo you thought you wouldn't have a match? lol' and play the boot of karma against this shitbag heel champion.

    Want to make the MITB holder seem like a big player? Have them defend the MITB case regularly - preferably not drop it to anyone else, but defend it regularly with victories over strong talent to make them feel more like a worthy main eventer when there's stakes involved. As it is, it feels like the MITB holder is just forgotten about until it's time to cash in, when there should be a slew of people recognizing that this guy is holding a ticket to the top, and wanting it for themselves, or the MITB holder wanting to 'prove himself' before the time comes.

    And MITB's fallen into the Rumble problem, in that 'ANY OF THESE COMPEDITORS CAN WIN but really we're just pushing this one mid-to-upper midcard guy for a bit.' As it is, unless you're one of the top three-ish guys in the match, you're just a warm body. MITB is supposed to be a surprise launchpad, but the winner is barely ever that much of a surprise. The rare times it is a surprise, it doesn't have the effort or commitment to go anywhere. You know how cool and unexpected Otis was as a MITB winner? It was amazing and it went nowhere. You don't have to make him champion, you just have to making him look worthy. I'm sad he didn't cash in for a world tag team title shot for him and Tucker, that's a unique scenario for a loveable babyface who acts based on friendship and shared goals. See, there's a fun scenario that is a bit outside of the usual MITB tropes. Would it even be devaluing the MITB concept since at this point there's multiple MITBs a year, and you can play the other MITB holder as SUPER SERIAL UNFLAPPABLE BADASS or whatever lame buzzwords?

    You know what kind of cash-in hasn't happened? A fake-out cash in. The referee has never checked the case to see if it has the contract in it, they just take it and ring the bell. So wouldn't it be an ultimate jerkbag move for a heel to cash in the MITB case for a match, win it, then reveal he still has a contract and just gave the referee an empty case? So even if he loses the title later, he still has an extra cash in contract up his sleeve. I'm sure there's some logistics in wether giving the case up counts as giving the contract up or such, but it's be an fun extra twist for a heel shitstain.

    And while we're on the topic of alternate cash ins, here's one I've been wanting to happen since it's been introduced - the MITB has a time limit of one year, right? But that's never been a part of the story. I don't think anyone's even come close to the expiry date. Have a MITB winner, perhaps a weaselly heel, forever waiting for the right moment to cash in, except one champion is Roman Reigns and the other is Big E, so unless he catches them at a super weak moment, he knows he's screwed. So he keeps waiting. And waiting. And waiting. Every week there's a segment of him watching Reigns vs whoever is going to lose to Reigns, waiting for a weak point, except there's never one. And the one time there IS a weak moment, he sprints out, then has second thoughts and leaves. So on, so forth, with him getting increasingly desperate - and presumably the crowd will have come onto his side out of sheer endearment - until it's exactly one year later. The deadline has hit, it's the next year's MITB and his literal last day. The champion knows it's coming, fully expects a cash in, and after beating their opponent, waits for the cash in. With no other option, use it or lose it, the MITB guy cashes in, gets his ass kicked, but by some miracle pulls off the upset. Streamers, confetti, celebration!

    Spoiler:

    And then the music of that year's MITB winner hits...


    There, I just shared a bunch of alternative ideas for an MITB cash in. They're copyrighted for my upcoming BTB. Don't steal them. I'll know.

    Anyway, I think WWE needs to sit down and plan things long-term for MITB. No more Day 1-Day 7 cash ins for another few years, no more surprise cash ins with zero planning ahead. Sit down, decide the MITB winner and their journey to cashing in. Character development, alignments, motivation, everything. Who will they cash in on? How will cashing in effect them or their opponent? What is the overarching plan? Decide it all, then stick with it. A surprise MITB cash in can still be a surprise, but with the build and development it can feel like a well-earned surprise rather than a knee-jerk one. If it makes it easier, stagger things - A men's MITB one year, a women's MITB the next - and cut the planning by half. They're leaving so much story possibilities on the table in favor of cheap 'moments' to pop a rating when they could gain that rating with just some good writing.
    Last edited by Smooth Jazz Wolf; 09-16-2021 at 03:23 AM.


    Spoiler:








  11. #11

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by CGS View Post
    I still don't understand why they didn't have someone cash in advance for the Wrestlemania main event. It's supposed to be the pinnacle of professional wrestling....and yet no one seems to want to put their name in lights and raise their stock ahead of time. its jut lazy booking from the WWE's part.
    In kayfabe, why would you want to wait months and months to have a seemingly surefire way to win a World Title? Sure, main eventing Wrestlemania is swell, but Money in the Bank occurs so far in advance that a talent is seemingly giving up so much money by refusing to cash-in and accept that main event pay outs with a successful cash-in. As important as Wrestlemania is, there's Summerslam, Survivor Series, Royal Rumble, and about a million Raws or Smackdowns from when you're winning MITB to when Wrestlemania occurs. Besides, there's always the Royal Rumble match to try and force your way into the Wrestlemania main event if you decide to cash-in early and then lose the World Title prior to Wrestlemania.

    I think this is also why hosting Money in the Bank at Wrestlemania was the best for the gimmick. In theory, a talent could by winning MITB and then immediately cashing in to main event the very same Wrestlemania or you could do a big, over the top year long countdown of when you'll be cashing in. By moving the match away from Wrestlemania, it messes with the timing of everything.

    I wouldn't necessarily say that there's a Money in the Bank problem. It's just that it's a gimmick to abruptly give the World Title to a different wrestler. There's only so many ideas. In some ways, Edge's cash-in was both the best and worst thing to have happened with the gimmick. It created this fun idea that a cash-in could happen at any time, but now if you're someone who announces your title shot in advance, you're sort of a moron.

    Money in the Bank is a gimmick match where it'd probably benefit if it was something special, rather than an annual tradition. Bring it back whenever you have an idea for it rather than forcing two winners per year.

  12. #12
    Le Champion
    Baldwin's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    4,001
    Rep Power
    808020
      Country                    Scotland

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    The last time I really cared for the concept from person winning to person cashing in was when Miz originally had it and cashed in on Orton, that was a decade ago. The idea of MITB is fine and all but WWE haven't been able to book it successfully for years and the women's one is even worse.



  13. #13
    Established Veteran
    Raye's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    2,758
    Rep Power
    1790827
      Country                    Canada

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    In kayfabe, why would you want to wait months and months to have a seemingly surefire way to win a World Title? Sure, main eventing Wrestlemania is swell, but Money in the Bank occurs so far in advance that a talent is seemingly giving up so much money by refusing to cash-in and accept that main event pay outs with a successful cash-in. As important as Wrestlemania is, there's Summerslam, Survivor Series, Royal Rumble, and about a million Raws or Smackdowns from when you're winning MITB to when Wrestlemania occurs. Besides, there's always the Royal Rumble match to try and force your way into the Wrestlemania main event if you decide to cash-in early and then lose the World Title prior to Wrestlemania.

    I think this is also why hosting Money in the Bank at Wrestlemania was the best for the gimmick. In theory, a talent could by winning MITB and then immediately cashing in to main event the very same Wrestlemania or you could do a big, over the top year long countdown of when you'll be cashing in. By moving the match away from Wrestlemania, it messes with the timing of everything.

    I wouldn't necessarily say that there's a Money in the Bank problem. It's just that it's a gimmick to abruptly give the World Title to a different wrestler. There's only so many ideas. In some ways, Edge's cash-in was both the best and worst thing to have happened with the gimmick. It created this fun idea that a cash-in could happen at any time, but now if you're someone who announces your title shot in advance, you're sort of a moron.

    Money in the Bank is a gimmick match where it'd probably benefit if it was something special, rather than an annual tradition. Bring it back whenever you have an idea for it rather than forcing two winners per year.
    I mean, it depends on the character and the gimmick right? Cashing in to main event Wrestlemania sounds perfect for an underdog babyface character. It is the boyhood dream for many and it's a direction I'd love to see them take at least once with somebody.
    Vote on WC's Top 15 AEW Acts of 2021 Here:
    http://wrestlingclique.com/showthread.php?t=177261


  14. #14
    The EST of WC
    CGS's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    22,598
    Rep Power
    956263
      Country                    Jamaica

    Re: Does WWE Have a Money in the Bank Problem? **Contains Raw Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    In kayfabe, why would you want to wait months and months to have a seemingly surefire way to win a World Title? Sure, main eventing Wrestlemania is swell, but Money in the Bank occurs so far in advance that a talent is seemingly giving up so much money by refusing to cash-in and accept that main event pay outs with a successful cash-in. As important as Wrestlemania is, there's Summerslam, Survivor Series, Royal Rumble, and about a million Raws or Smackdowns from when you're winning MITB to when Wrestlemania occurs. Besides, there's always the Royal Rumble match to try and force your way into the Wrestlemania main event if you decide to cash-in early and then lose the World Title prior to Wrestlemania.
    -Maybe Wrestlemania is in their hometown and they want to win the big one (possibly for the first time) right there
    -Heading Mania is the dream for many guys, alongside winning the WWE title. Why wouldn't someone want to achieve both in one go?
    -The big bad heal has one upped the underdog face many times and they want to take them down once and for all and do it on the "grandest stage of them all"
    -The underdog face feels he has a huge point to prove and decides he's going to prove it on the biggest stage of them all.

    I mean, that's about 2 mins of thinking so I'm sure a sea of trained writers can come up with something logical. Like Raye said, it very much depends on the person and their character at that moment, but there is a story that can be created. RVD's cash-in was pre-announced, and the fact that he chose to do it on an ECW show made 100% sense. If the story is there and the person has been built up enough, you could very easily build it up. Have someone announce their intentions 6 weeks beforehand and just built a story around it. It may not be THE most logical thing to do in a kayfabe sense. but a logical story can be created from it.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •