View Poll Results: Joe vs Jay

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  • Samoa Joe

    21 87.50%
  • Jay Lethal

    3 12.50%
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Thread: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

  1. #1
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    WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FepI5A7rjKs

    Samoa Joe vs Chris Hero, A Shot Of Southern Comfort


    vs


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ6NRb0CBbc

    Jay Lethal vs AJ Styles, Slammiversary 2010



    BONUS MATCH:

    Spoiler:

    https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1vt411J7TQ/

    Jay Lethal vs Samoa Joe, Manhatten Mayhem


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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Joe just edges it for me.
    I have a plan so cunning......

    #ShadeWinsLOL

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    I think both have mixed careers.

    For me think of it like this: Lethal's best match of his career was against Joe. That match wouldn't make Joe's top 10 matches ever.

    Joe for me. Much higher peak.

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Kicking off the tournament with a bit of a peak Vs longevity discussion because I think Lethal has had more good years (or perhaps less mediocre years) than Joe, I've never watched Lethal and felt sad that he isn't the wrestler he used to be, but Lethal doesn't touch those great years of Joe in the 2000s where Joe was fantastic and a BITW candidate. I have found enjoyment in what Joe does in WWE, I think there has been plenty of 'good' matches and he's been one of the best talkers of the last 5 years (not that it applies in this tournament), but it's just not the same and I think that's gonna eventually hold up Joe in this tournament. I would say the better wrestler in the 2010s was Lethal and he's been one of the most consistently good parts of ROH this past decade.

    Overall though, I have to give this round to Joe.
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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Not an easy draw for Jay Lethal because like Ed said, even though he has the consistent good years in his favour, his peak doesn't even reach Joe's. I really dig his Black Machismo gimmick with it being my favourite gimmick growing up and there are quite a few good X-Division matches along with it. His ROH run from what I've seen is really all good but it's still very much a blindspot that I have in my fandom.

    Joe's ROH run is up there with the best. Incredible matches, generation and company defining title run and an unmatched aura. His TNA run in many ways is disapointing in comparison to what it should've been but he still had some quality matches against AJ Styles, Christian, etc. Joe isn't very good nowadays due to injuries but he is still prone to deliver a good bout once in a while.

    Right now, I go with Joe.

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I think both have mixed careers.

    For me think of it like this: Lethal's best match of his career was against Joe. That match wouldn't make Joe's top 10 matches ever.

    Joe for me. Much higher peak.

    Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk
    That's not Lethals best match. Hes had better.

    I'm going with Lethal, Joe just isn't the same where as Lethal just got better and better. Hes also more versatile in the ring. This is close because Joe has had some of the greatest matches ever but his lows and injuries have held him back.
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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    For all the talk of Lethal being more consistent over a longer period of time, I never thought Company Ace-period Lethal was much good. I could probably count on hand the number of matches in the 2010s I liked with him in. That's partly because the roster he was working with mostly sucked, but he was a big part of the decline in quality of ROH.

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    For all the talk of Lethal being more consistent over a longer period of time, I never thought Company Ace-period Lethal was much good. I could probably count on hand the number of matches in the 2010s I liked with him in. That's partly because the roster he was working with mostly sucked, but he was a big part of the decline in quality of ROH.
    Yeah his matches with Ciampa sucked. But that was because of Ciampa.

    Lethals matches in ROH from 2016 until present are mostly great. Except for his stuff with Cody.
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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Count me in the camp that doesn't think Lethal's work later in ROH is that great. Its good, he's definitely improved from where he was in the 00s, but I don't remember seeing any matches of his that truly blew me away.

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Count me in the camp that doesn't think Lethal's work later in ROH is that great. Its good, he's definitely improved from where he was in the 00s, but I don't remember seeing any matches of his that truly blew me away.

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    I think it's debatable he improved much with age and experience, I'd much rather watch Young Prospect Lethal than Main Event Lethal.

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Tough break for Lethal.

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Count me in the camp that doesn't think Lethal's work later in ROH is that great. Its good, he's definitely improved from where he was in the 00s, but I don't remember seeing any matches of his that truly blew me away.

    Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk
    What matches have you seen though?

    Have you seen


    Lethal vs Kyle Oreily from ROH tv june 2016

    Lethal vs Cole from.Reach for the sky night 3

    Lethal vs Kushida from War of the Worlds 2017

    Lethal vs Jay White from Global Wars 2017

    Lethal vs Kushida Best in the World 2018

    Lethal vs Haskins Honor Re United London

    Lethal vs Ospreay from Death before Doshonor 2018

    Lethal vs Gresham all 4 matches

    Lethal and Gresham vs Haskins and Williams from road to G1 supercard of honor


    hes had heaps of great matches from 2016 to present. id say even more than Samoa Joe at this point in both their full careers.

    As great as Joe was, he hasnt shown much since joining WWE. I mean nothing Joes done in WWE can touch the Lethal vs Gresham series.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    I think it's debatable he improved much with age and experience, I'd much rather watch Young Prospect Lethal than Main Event Lethal.
    No offense, but that is flat out wrong. Lethal was great in that role but hes had way more better matches than back then
    Last edited by indyfan; 05-03-2020 at 12:00 PM.
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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    We're going to just disagree on this. I've seen half of those matches along with other big Lethal bouts like the Jay Briscoe series and didn't rate them. I'd take his '05-'06 stint as his best run and the program with Joe/Rottweilers as the best stuff of his career. The Gresham matches were great but they stood out because of how mediocre most of what Lethal does is in comparison.

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    I’d say the best Lethal match was his title defence against Roddy on TV, which I had as my ROH MOTY in 2016. Unfortunately, it’s annoyingly hard to find and post here since I think you need to go back and find a download for the whole episode it aired on.

    I do rate this run for Lethal quite highly though. There were some great matches there, not all of them, but he was a very consistently strong character and promo too, which should be brought into consideration for that stage of his career. He was brilliant at hyping up every defence and building up his opponents. Obviously I mean outside of the context of this tournament if we’re talking purely in the ring though.


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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Went with Joe though a lot of consideration went into this


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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan View Post
    What matches have you seen though?

    Have you seen


    Lethal vs Kyle Oreily from ROH tv june 2016

    Lethal vs Cole from.Reach for the sky night 3

    Lethal vs Kushida from War of the Worlds 2017

    Lethal vs Jay White from Global Wars 2017

    Lethal vs Kushida Best in the World 2018

    Lethal vs Haskins Honor Re United London

    Lethal vs Ospreay from Death before Doshonor 2018

    Lethal vs Gresham all 4 matches

    Lethal and Gresham vs Haskins and Williams from road to G1 supercard of honor


    hes had heaps of great matches from 2016 to present. id say even more than Samoa Joe at this point in both their full careers.

    As great as Joe was, he hasnt shown much since joining WWE. I mean nothing Joes done in WWE can touch the Lethal vs Gresham series.



    No offense, but that is flat out wrong. Lethal was great in that role but hes had way more better matches than back then
    I won't have watched many matches from 2018-2020 I know that because he's not a guy I've ever been interested in hunting down his matches for. I can't specifically remember watching any of those matches you've listed, but I still feel comfortable making the vote because his matches before then (e.g. stuff against Cole, KOR, Styles and Jay Briscoe) haven't endeared me to him.







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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    I gotta go with Jay Lethal. Yes, he never "peaked" in WWE, but Joe hasn't impressed me much beyond a couple sparks on the mic in WWE. He's constantly hurt. Meanwhile, Lethal gave us one of the more entertaining gimmicks of all-time in Black Machismo, had a nice run in the X-Division (flashback to his feud with Sonjay Dutt), and he's been a mainstay in ROH. Lethal being the guy in ROH means more to me than Joe being a guy (oft-injured) in WWE. And the only thing that I enjoyed from Joe is the Nation of Violence gimmick.

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Quote Originally Posted by Finishline View Post
    I gotta go with Jay Lethal. Yes, he never "peaked" in WWE, but Joe hasn't impressed me much beyond a couple sparks on the mic in WWE. He's constantly hurt. Meanwhile, Lethal gave us one of the more entertaining gimmicks of all-time in Black Machismo, had a nice run in the X-Division (flashback to his feud with Sonjay Dutt), and he's been a mainstay in ROH. Lethal being the guy in ROH means more to me than Joe being a guy (oft-injured) in WWE. And the only thing that I enjoyed from Joe is the Nation of Violence gimmick.
    Hi, have you heard the good news about Samoa Joe's legendary run as "the guy" in ROH?


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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    Does Finishline know Joe had a career before WWE??

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    Re: WCBNAINWOATT Round 1: Samoa Joe vs Jay Lethal

    To me Lethal is like the ultimate blank canvas in wrestling. If you put him in there against someone great like Gresham he can rise to that occasion, but otherwise is flat as an open soda that was left in the fridge for 21 days. The ultimate 5/10 wrestler.

    Joe's peak is incredibly high but then there were other times of bad booking, injuries, motivation issues, and poor decision making on his part. For the last few years he's totally broken down and lives on promo ability and rep more than actually being a good worker. When he hangs up he to me is one of the greatest cases of "what could have been" in wrestling history. There's no question to me he should be hailed as one of the top wrestlers of his era and of all time like AJ is but I don't see him that way at all in the grand scheme of things.

    That said, he's got enough to be Lethal. I'm not sure he'll go very far in my books though.

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