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Thread: The BTB Discussion Thread

  1. #12181
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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Just letting my fellow bookers that I am offering feedback for feedback. Still getting back here and there is alot of great work. Been loving what I have seen so far, Im lazy so its hard to do feedback but ill do it




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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    It's been so long.

    I have been cut off and went back somewhere else and heard some of you mental beings congregated back here, so yeah.
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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grange View Post
    Just letting my fellow bookers that I am offering feedback for feedback. Still getting back here and there is alot of great work. Been loving what I have seen so far, Im lazy so its hard to do feedback but ill do it
    Ok.....(deep breath) Before I even begin I just want to state that this is only MY HUMBLE OPINION. It isn't me being an asshole or trying to show you up, Grange. I just want to throw out my opinion here and it (unfortunately) is in disagreement with your offer above.

    I am not the biggest fan of the "review for review" policy for a lot of different reasons that I'm going to lay out. I think its a system that leads to shitty reviews, hard feelings and results in a drop in quality. "Review for review" is standard policy for a lot of other forums; whether it be official or unofficial in nature. Before I start throwing out why I think it doesn't work, I'd like to point out that that most of those forums are dying on the vine while this section seems to getting better and better every month.

    Item 1#

    "Review for Review" doesn't work because it is inherently selfish.

    Reviews are given for the sole reason to get something back. Maybe not the "sole reason", but I wouldn't be going too far say that it is the main reason. People aren't giving these reviews to make another person a better writer, because they are interested in the BTB or because they are looking to help make the section stronger....They are looking for a review for THEIR work. This can lead to shitty reviews where someone is forced to skim to create a shitty review they have no real interest in giving in order to receive the same.
    This doesn't help anyone. If you are not interested in the BTB, you simply aren't interested in it. Someone giving you a review isn't going to change that. It is going to force you to give a review. How good do you think its going to be? From experience, I think they are usually shit. They state obvious points and equate to "cool story, bro!"

    Item 2#

    9 times out of 10....someone normally doesn't uphold their end and feelings get hurt.

    If someone does not have time to review but corners their way into having to give a review because they got one....they normally give a lame apology when they feel are too busy and leave the other guy hanging after a promise of reviews. It is annoying.

    In your example above, its hard for me to give reviews, but I will. Honestly, its not going to get easier to give reviews. Adding the additional responsibilty of HAVING to give a review makes it even less fun. You aren't picking a project that drew your initial interest... you are forcing yourself a review a project that you could potentially hate. Is that fair to you or the person? In my experience, those reviews normally are shallow and show little effort.

    If say 5 people decide they want a review and give you a review....are you really going to read their BTB like you should and give 5 good reviews of you have a hard time giving one review of any project you could choose on your own?

    Item 3#

    What is the point?

    Why trade a half-ass review for another half-ass review? You should really want people to review your work because they have some sort of investment in your work; not because its some sort of agreement. (OK....I can't tell you what you SHOULD want. Let me amend that....)

    I wouldn't want someone reading my work on a deal. I want someone to read it because they are interested in my work or in me as a writer. Having someone read my work just to get something isn't something I'd relish. Understand, I understand trying to help someone helping you out. I love that idea, but I simply like to be more selective in who I review. I don't have time to review every person that puts up something I'm really interested in. (Hell, I barely have time to write my own BTB). There are projects here that I have no interest in. I don't enjoy the premise or how they are presented...to be forced to review them because they reviewed my work would be torture and unfair. I'd hate to give an honest review to someone that really craved a review and come off as an asshole. Equally, I'd hate to give a BS review to something I'd hate. Its a "Catch 22" that review for review creates.


    My advice? Just find some BTBs that interest you and drop them some reviews because the premise interests you. At least the review will be genuine.... Maybe some of those guys will return the favor. (I still think its good manners to return reviews, but hate making mandatory) If they don't...maybe move on to other projects that catch your interest. Sooner or later, you'll find a someone that clicks with you.

    Reviews have become more and more scarce here in the last couple of years because I think this whole "review 4 review" mentality is slowly seeping in with the influx of new talent. A lot of guys aren't looking to review...they are waiting to get a review before doing it. Historically, that isn't how it was done here. Now, it isn't a bad thing. I'm just saying that this place was different for a reason. I'd hate to see it devolve into a clone of a lot of other sections across the net.



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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Review 4 Review sucks. So do reviews in general.

    So there's that.
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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by British Brawler View Post
    Review 4 Review sucks. So do reviews in general.

    So there's that.
    Well that's a stupid attitude. This BTB section thrives largely because of the constructive reviews myself and many others have given over the years. I think that's why we have such a high calibre of writer here. People know they will be given advice and can improve greatly. Honestly I still browse the net at other sections to see what else we could be doing but I don't think anywhere compares to what we have over here.

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    You improve as a writer by doing it, not through reviews. I have had reviews of my work in the past but I picked up my skills through years of experience and by taking aspects and ideas from other work (in terms of how thoughtful the layout was, graphics use, etc.)

    I hardly ever paid attention to reviews, though I did obviously read them. I honed my skills on a forum where reviews, as you call them, were scarce, but the quality of writer was massive. I was an average one surrounded by greats but soon got to know what was expected and soon improved my quality of writing. The best writers, be it in Fan Fiction or other words, won't tell you reviews have helped them. Infact, notable authors will speak of how they hole themselves up to write and just do it for years until they are happy with a work and even then, some still don't make it, or they do make it to publication and such, but it takes time.

    In short, what I'm saying is whilst reviews is a fun thing on a forum like this and makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy when people give them a 10/10, it's largely pointless and a waste of time, in the main.
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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Got to agree with White Rhyno, in my experience, review for review policy never works out well and ultimately, it's never for the enjoyment of others shows, it's to hear positive feedback on your own which in turn, turns out to be a viscous circle for the reasons Rhyno already explained. That said, just my opinion.

    I review quite a few shows and do so because I enjoy them, I'm invested and want to see more. Plus, I think feedback when genuine is great and ultimately, everyone likes to receive praise and constructive criticism when it's needed. When me and Skeng joined, we seen our reviews as acceptance to the forum and section which was really cool. That said, we don't expect people to review if they don't want too or because we're reviewing theirs. It's important to firstly write for your own enjoyment and then if others are enjoying it too- then awesome!


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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baldwin View Post
    Congrats to Sykotic.

    So, GCB's post Invasion thread got me looking/thinking and I don't recall/can't find an Invasion thread that really went the distance, which is a shame tbf, there may be one or two that I just don't remember, anyway, what I was wondering is, has anyone else actually planned out an Invasion angle, posted or kept to yourself? I've dabbled in it before and I'm pretty sure I ended up having Jeff Jarrett Vs Vince McMahon as one of the main feuds planned for it.
    I always want to - but I can't think of the big hook that will make it work. I know that you can bring in all the WCW stars that didn't make the Invasion but I feel it isn't right to do that. Hence why I always go after WMX8 (as I've done in the past) or after Survivor Series (as I've done now).

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by British Brawler View Post
    You improve as a writer by doing it, not through reviews. I have had reviews of my work in the past but I picked up my skills through years of experience and by taking aspects and ideas from other work (in terms of how thoughtful the layout was, graphics use, etc.)

    I hardly ever paid attention to reviews, though I did obviously read them. I honed my skills on a forum where reviews, as you call them, were scarce, but the quality of writer was massive. I was an average one surrounded by greats but soon got to know what was expected and soon improved my quality of writing. The best writers, be it in Fan Fiction or other words, won't tell you reviews have helped them. Infact, notable authors will speak of how they hole themselves up to write and just do it for years until they are happy with a work and even then, some still don't make it, or they do make it to publication and such, but it takes time.

    In short, what I'm saying is whilst reviews is a fun thing on a forum like this and makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy when people give them a 10/10, it's largely pointless and a waste of time, in the main.
    Published authors are quite a bit different to people writing fan fiction on a forum though, aren’t they? I’m sure those authors didn’t make it to publication in the first place by ignoring the advice of everybody around them, telling themselves that they’ll just get better the more they write. You’re constantly learning. I’m sure guys with longer BTB’s on here such as Sykotic and Order, amongst others, will tell you that they take constructive criticism on board and aren’t under the perception that they’ve been doing it for so long that they don’t need to take any notice. I know reviews have certainly been one of the most important things in helping me progress as a writer over the years. On top of that it’s just nice every now and again to hear what your readers think. Like Order said, the community on here is why this forum is thriving in comparison to the majority of others, and reviews certainly play an important role in that.

    Got to agree with Rhyno though in that reviews for reviews aren’t the best way to go about business. It was used quite often on the forum we came from and I’m pretty sure they’ve completely gotten rid of their BTB section now because of how dead it became.

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    I don't agree with Brawlers mentality that you can only improve by writing and that's it. It doesn't matter what activity you are doing, but simply doing it can only take you so far. You need the insight of others or your improvements will be limited. Self-analysis is rarely going to take you as far as the guidance and advice of others can when combined with self-analysis. Most people simply don't self-analyze well enough, and recognizing mistakes and better approaches isn't easy - if it was, the writer wouldn't have made that mistake in the first place.

    Reviews do have some value beyond the obvious - its feedback directly from your audience. Businesses pay millions to get direct feedback from customers / users / clients. A review is just giving it. Not every review has that kind of feedback built in, but some do. And not to say you should massively alter your approach or your plans because of some feedback. But entirely ignoring your audience is probably not the best approach either.

    I do very much agree that review-for-review isn't the best approach. Most of the reasons have already been mentioned. But another smaller one is that someone who is only giving a review to get something in return is probably not reading your work because they enjoy it. So they might be giving a review based on that single show and nothing more. And story arcs, character development, and all of that obviously goes on over a long period of shows, so it can be much like someone trying to do a review of a TV show by simply watching an episode in the middle of a season, without any real understanding of what happened prior. It gives a rather skewed view.

  11. #12191
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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by British Brawler View Post
    You improve as a writer by doing it, not through reviews. I have had reviews of my work in the past but I picked up my skills through years of experience and by taking aspects and ideas from other work (in terms of how thoughtful the layout was, graphics use, etc.)

    I hardly ever paid attention to reviews, though I did obviously read them. I honed my skills on a forum where reviews, as you call them, were scarce, but the quality of writer was massive. I was an average one surrounded by greats but soon got to know what was expected and soon improved my quality of writing. The best writers, be it in Fan Fiction or other words, won't tell you reviews have helped them. Infact, notable authors will speak of how they hole themselves up to write and just do it for years until they are happy with a work and even then, some still don't make it, or they do make it to publication and such, but it takes time.

    In short, what I'm saying is whilst reviews is a fun thing on a forum like this and makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy when people give them a 10/10, it's largely pointless and a waste of time, in the main.
    Ultimately, those writers have to submit to agents who will give them feedback. They will have to get it through editors... who will give them feedback. Self-published? You rely on good reviews to get noticed. The publishing industry completely and ONE HUNDRED PERCENT relies on feedback. You can hole yourself up but eventually you have to get out and get that feedback. Writing will NEVER be a solitary experience unless you keep it in your drawer or your harddrive and never care to let anyone see. Pretty much wholeheartedly disagree with your dismissal of feedback and wonder which writers you're talking about that manage to get through an agent, an editor, a publisher and never need to care about feedback.

    EDIT: Heck, I must edit to add the most vital part of any writing workshop (if you care for those) is the feedback process and there's a reason for that.

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    It is a credit to this forum that reviews can be so valuable. I came from a place that was very much review-for-review, and I never listened to any just because they didn't mean anything and were usually a sentence or two just to get one back. It's courteous to review someone who reviews you, and I try to when I have the chance, but it should never be a rule. If the booker is just something that doesn't interest you, you shouldn't be forced into reviewing them in any which way and shouldn't then be ostracized for not reviewing them. On here, it seems like people do really try to review just bookers that interest them, and it really does make reviewing easier that way. I review as many as I can, and I read many more simply because of a good format, or a fun story.

    On the topic of feedback helping, I find it immensely helpful. Like Papa said, it should never completely change directions unless it's wholly bad, but it should definitely have an impact. These people are your fans, and if you aren't listening to them, you become the WWE of today deciding that Roman Reigns is the top guy no matter the reaction. Bookers should always take into account the points people make, to the best of their ability, to make things better for their readers. You can only learn so much writing and reading, I know from experience. Eventually, you need to listen to people and work for them a little bit. The response this forum has had is something that makes me really appreciate it, knowing that people care about enjoyment and helping each other. It's a proud feeling to be part of a community like this.

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Yeah I think hearing what you are doing well and what you need to improve on is always helpful. We as writers need to hear where we have gone wrong, sometimes authors just go on tangents and need to be brought back to the meat of a story sometimes.

    As for review for review, I'm with the general consensus that it isn't a good thing. I review only the stuff I actually read and am invested in, something that has gotten my full attention. Quite simply it can be hard to read all the content on here and my philosophy is that I will seek stuff that I really enjoy and stick with it, that's when I review. I never expect people to review but of course I love it when they do, it's not just about constructive criticism or anything like that, it's just nice to hear from your audience and that people are enjoying your work. If it was review for review, it would be rare for me to get a review just because I only read a certain amount of work on the forum due to time constraints or my own interest level.

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Good feedback is the lifeblood for sections like this. If we did not want any sort of feedback, why even bother posting your work on-line? Simply put, just by placing what you are doing in a public forum is a call for feedback. I consider it a niche' on-line writing circle. Writing circles work best when everyone is involved and contributing. That is not really realistic here, however.

    I would like to see people make more effort to help one another out with reviews, but I can't say what others have going on in their lives or dictate to them what they find interesting. I'd say asking regular posters to try and get ONE review up a week shouldn't be too challenging, but what do I know? If everyone posting here would post one review a week, I think morale would soar and spark more reviews.

    Let me say this, however....Grange sort of sparked this whole thing and I was hesitant to respond to it for fearing of putting him on blast. He is not alone in the "review for review" expectation here. Like I said, it is pretty much how much forums like this run. He just happened to be the guy that actually vocalized it. Week after week, various guys post shows here and give out subtle calls for reviews. I always wonder why they aren't reviewing to get them; rather than throw out subtle hints. Hell, the advertising thread is nothing but an obvious call for reviews... How many times do you see someone in the advertising thread actually giving reviews, however?

    I've said this again and again, but.... If you want reviews, the best way to get them is to give them. Period. End of story. Not everyone here gives reviews. You may review a thread and get no review in return, but I can almost say with 100% certainty that giving a reviewing will significantly increase your chances of getting one. Review threads that interest you. Find writers you like. I still feel like that effort will link you up with someone looking for the same thing.



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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by White Rhyno View Post
    I've said this again and again, but.... If you want reviews, the best way to get them is to give them. Period. End of story. Not everyone here gives reviews. You may review a thread and get no review in return, but I can almost say with 100% certainty that giving a reviewing will significantly increase your chances of getting one. Review threads that interest you. Find writers you like. I still feel like that effort will link you up with someone looking for the same thing.
    To give sort of an example of this, coming on here and starting up brand new, I just gave out a couple reviews here and there maybe for my first like month or so and like most of my other projects elsewhere, I thought this was going to probably die shortly thereafter. Then I got a review, and I felt really good about it so I thought to give to other people as well. From there, honestly, I found my favorite booker I've ever read in stojy and feel that he and I have sort of linked up in that way for reviewing and working together through that. Sometimes it's tough to give reviews, I completely understand from a personal standpoint. But just trying to give one here and there, maybe challenge yourself or set time up to do it, it can really make a difference for someone's activity level and enjoyment and could get you partnered up with someone or you could suddenly find yourself loving something you never expected.

    I know nothing of 2001/2002, but GCB's thread I'm sure will educate me well and I'm looking forward to it. He's a great writer, and I never would've given it a chance but I decided I'd just step outside the comfort zone and see if I liked it. Giving yourself a challenge of saying I'll read this or that, and then just posting whatever reaction you have, however big or small, can really help encourage people to continue and make all the hard work they put in feel more meaningful and can give you an idea of some timeframe or some decisions that maybe you wouldn't otherwise have the viewpoint of. I know I appreciate reviews, so I'm sure other people do as well.

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JayWhy75 View Post
    Sometimes it's tough to give reviews, I completely understand from a personal standpoint. But just trying to give one here and there, maybe challenge yourself or set time up to do it, it can really make a difference for someone's activity level and enjoyment and could get you partnered up with someone or you could suddenly find yourself loving something you never expected.

    Giving yourself a challenge of saying I'll read this or that, and then just posting whatever reaction you have, however big or small, can really help encourage people to continue and make all the hard work they put in feel more meaningful and can give you an idea of some timeframe or some decisions that maybe you wouldn't otherwise have the viewpoint of. I know I appreciate reviews, so I'm sure other people do as well.
    2 things that stood out...

    1) I totally get not having time to give reviews. What I'm seeing from this end, however, for a lot of people isn't that they don't have time; its that they aren't TAKING the time to give reviews. When I see a writer steadily posting shows, I think that's great. When I see them steadily posting shows and then hinting for reviews without giving a single one.....that isn't a time issue. That's a choice to focus on your work and your work alone.

    Now.... that is fine. Work on your work, but don't expect a one-way street when it comes to reviews. I'm one of those guys that notices post counts and where those post counts are adding up. IF you have time to post multiple shows a month, you also have time to give someone a review or two. Both of them take a time, but when a writer chooses to forgo giving reviews to get another show up; he needs to understand that other posters notice that. I get taking care of your project; just don't expect others to care about it if that's all you are focussing on.

    2) I actually like the idea of trying new things, but lets remember that people gravitate to what they are familiar and comfortable with. Some projects are going to find a harder time finding people to latch on to them. If you love your project, that shouldn't matter as much; but if you CRAVE reviews....just giving reviews isn't going to help people connect with your project. I like old school bookers that focus when I got into wrestling, but I find a lot of those type bookers aren't review friendly. I'm really NOT as into fantasy booking or bookers that focus on Puro. Its not that they are not quality reads, I just have a hard time visualizing them. Its not a knock on the writer or the product, taste are a personal thing that are not wrong or right. Have I gotten into PURO or fantasy threads and became a regular reader? Without a doubt I have, but they tend to become the exception rather than the rule.



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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Honestly, the reviews help me a lot. You can go back to my ECW booker on here, and many of the suggestions that were given, probably 98% of them...I used. The reviews help writers become better writers, and help spark the creativity as well. When I say review, I do not mean "oh that's a good show bro!" I mean really good reviews...as in the reviews that guys like Sykotic, Order, RED, Ranthellacious, and many others give. The ones that have substance and give suggestions, while also commenting on what they like and what they do not like. I take those reviews very seriously. It helps me decide the direction of my project and if what I'm trying to convey through my project is actually clicking. If someone comments and says, "I wonder how Jeff Jarrett could start working for the Mcmahons again." Bam. That right there is a comment that I will utilize, so that in my next few updates I will address it or have some sort of plan to address it in the future. I am a huge supporter of the review-4-review policy, because I think it does nothing but helps this entire section grow. Other forums have "booker sections", AND NONE...NONE can even remotely compare to the creativity, feedback, and overall running of this section on this forum. There is a reason we have updates on this section 6 or 7 times in one day, while other forums will have days in between where no one even posts on the section. This section on this forum THRIVES and it makes me as a booker, want to be the absolute best that I can possibly be...while also making this be the absolute best booker section on the entire internet (which I certainly think it is). I am not saying that you have to review a project, if you don't feel like it...then don't. Don't force yourself to review something, just for the sake of reviewing it. But I can honestly say that every single review I get, I do take to heart and I try to utilize any criticism that I do receive. Because that is what a good writer does.

    Hahaha which is why in my signature, I literally have my "review 4 review" :p hahaha
    Last edited by Charlemm1; 09-16-2017 at 01:49 AM.


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    -Review 4 Review-

    BTB Awards and Recognitions

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Would anybody be able to read a show for a potential new BTB of mine? I really want to be well prepared for this one, and would love an opinion!

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Declandimi101 View Post
    Would anybody be able to read a show for a potential new BTB of mine? I really want to be well prepared for this one, and would love an opinion!
    Not on your nelly.

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    Re: The BTB Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Declandimi101 View Post
    Would anybody be able to read a show for a potential new BTB of mine? I really want to be well prepared for this one, and would love an opinion!
    At least two guys here do "review 4 review". Why not review their work and get some reviews?



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