View Poll Results: Who is the Greatest Of All TIME?!

Voters
32. You may not vote on this poll
  • Ric Flair

    16 50.00%
  • Daniel Bryan

    16 50.00%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36

Thread: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

  1. #1
    WAKE UP

    Status
    Online
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    33,662
    Rep Power
    1195305

  2. #2
    TAKE THE DREAM~

    MC 16's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    The Lesnar Farm
    Posts
    8,789
    Rep Power
    1463774
      Country                    England

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Flair is someone that just has so many high quality matches with so many different people. Just an seemingly endless supply of great Flair matches that keeps growing with more footage being found every day. The Steamboat feud has so many hits. And not just the 89 series, but the 84 match is outstanding as well. Same with the 94 matches (The Spring Stampede match is my favourite out of the whole lot). His prime is about as good and full as anyone ever. Even later in his career way past his prime, he had some quality matches against Mick Foley (Summerslam) and Shawn Michales (retirement match). It's very noticable when Flair has a below par match (Sting at Clash I) which says a lot about how consistent he is.

    To compare him to Bryan, I think Flair beats Bryan in consistency and peak. Bryan can perhaps switch up his style of match a bit better with Flair having a specific formula, although not in a way where it's the same thing regardless of opponent. There is some give and go as stated in previous threads. Bryan is great but I think he's a level or two below Flair.

  3. #3
    TAKE THE DREAM~

    MC 16's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    The Lesnar Farm
    Posts
    8,789
    Rep Power
    1463774
      Country                    England

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Flair is someone that just has so many high quality matches with so many different people. Just an seemingly endless supply of great Flair matches that keeps growing with more footage being found every day. The Steamboat feud has so many hits. And not just the 89 series, but the 84 match is outstanding as well. Same with the 94 matches (The Spring Stampede match is my favourite out of the whole lot). His prime is about as good and full as anyone ever. Even later in his career way past his prime, he had some quality matches against Mick Foley (Summerslam) and Shawn Michales (retirement match). It's very noticable when Flair has a below par match (Sting at Clash I) which says a lot about how consistent he is.

    To compare him to Bryan, I think Flair beats Bryan in consistency and peak. Bryan can perhaps switch up his style of match a bit better with Flair having a specific formula, although not in a way where it's the same thing regardless of opponent. There is some give and go as stated in previous threads. Bryan is great but I think he's a level or two below Flair.

  4. #4
    The Only 2x WC HOF
    Shock's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    23,708
    Rep Power
    3151425
      Country                    Scotland

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    My thoughts to this are largely similar to Flair vs Benoit. If I take a random Bryan match and a random Flair match, the Bryan match is much more likely to be good. But I do think there's a significant difference in the quality of their high end matches in favour of Flair. The best Bryan matches to me are: vs Morishima at Manhattan Mayhem, vs Nigel at Unified, vs Joe at Midnight Express Reunion. You've got the KENTA, Cena, Kofi, and the other Nigel matches. I don't think any of them are better than the big three Steamboat matches (not even counting the other matches they had). I don't think any of them are better than Flair vs Funk from either GAB or Clash. I wouldn't say with absolute certainty that they're better than Ron Garvin in a cage, vs Luger at Wrestlewar, vs Windham and vs Jumbo - I could be swayed either way with them. To me I think there's just too much high end stuff with too many different people for me to ignore. Bryan hasn't had a match where I've watched and thought "that might be the greatest wrestling match I've ever seen". Flair's done that multiple times for me (vs Funk at Clash VIII and vs Steamboat at Clash VI). Steamboat at Clash VI is my all time favourite match for what it's worth.

    One other important thing that has swayed my decision is that Flair in 89 had a year that was in my opinion by some distance better than even Bryan's best year. He was older than Bryan is now. Not only that, but I think that Bryan is, while still great, not as great as he was in 2013, and not nearly as great as he was in 2006. By all evidence it seems that Bryan's best year has been and gone, I cannot see him repeating another 2006 in the future. So Flair's best year will almost certainly be better than Bryan's best year when their careers are done. So who is the better wrestler, I think that Flair is.

    Bryan wins for consistency, and being a great TV worker but like we mentioned in the Benoit/Flair thread, it's apples to oranges. There's more than enough handheld footage of Flair and Steamboat churning out classics to know that Flair was really consistent and would have been a fantastic TV worker if he had the sort of schedule that Bryan had. Bryan might win a couple points for not being as formulaic as Flair, but Flair's formula could easily change on any given night depending on his opponent. I don't think it's a strong critique when so many of Flair's best matches feel different to one another.

    I said early on that I would struggle to make an argument for anyone against Flair, and I'd struggle to vote for anyone over Flair. It's such a similar match up to Flair vs Benoit, and I went with Flair there, which makes this ultimately a fairly confident decision for me. Bryan is a marvellous talent, and probably my second or third favourite guy in the whole thing behind Flair and Rey. But it's Flair for me.
    Last edited by Shock; 06-22-2020 at 06:03 PM.







    The 100 Greatest WCW Matches - Coming Soon


    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1986 - 1995) - Coming Soon



    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1996 - 2005) - Completed



  5. #5
    Main Eventer
    indyfan's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    8,361
    Rep Power
    877475

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Nothing Flair has done compares to Bryan vs Strong at Vendetta.

    Id rather watch a Bryan Danielson match from 2005-2009( Bryans best years by a long shot) over anything in Flairs career.
    ROH 2003 - end of 2008 = best years of wrestling ever

  6. #6
    Mr. Victory Through Guts

    Zero's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Beijing, China
    Posts
    11,895
    Rep Power
    1732962
      Country                    China

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    I think if there's an argument for Bryan to counter what Shock said although I largely agree with everything he said. But to me the level of those talent in those top tier matches of Flair's is significantly higher than Bryan's and Bryan is still up there. Not to take anything away from Flair, but Steamboat, Funk, Jumbo, these guys are all largely top 10 talents in wrestling history, and Funk I would consider the better worker, and I KNOW Jumbo is the GOAT in my eyes. I don't think I've ever seen a Bryan match where I felt like the other guy was better, even against people like AJ or prime Morishima who were BITW candidates. None of those names Shock listed for Flair were on the level of Kofi, who was largely a well below average worker his entire career and then after he stopped wrestling Bryan sucked again. This is the man who made people like Miz and Big Cass watchable, which would be like if Flair worked a program with the Yeti and it ended up not sucking.

    I think ultimately Flair's longevity gets the vote in this match but Bryan has a stront case in his own right, along with the fact that ultimately Shock is right. Flair had all the best matches between these two. But stylistically if you favor Bryan I can't rip it and you can easily argue he was the best wrestler. If he goes for 5-10 more years at his current level (best in the company) I might change my mind but until then I have to go with Flair.

  7. #7
    Admin in Lockdown

    Ed's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Dudley, England
    Posts
    39,348
    Rep Power
    4038927
      Country                    England

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    My feeling on it is that Bryan's the best wrestler ever. Any man who got a great match out of Bray Wyatt at least has a claim to that title. Fuck he's worked magic twice with Bray because he's the only one to make a Fiend match work. With all the shite that WCW put on in the 90s, does Flair have anything as good against a turd of a gimmick as The Fiend.

    I really think too much stock is being put into 'he didn't have a match as good as Flair Vs Steamboat' when that's a match featuring two excellent wrestlers. I think it's far more impressive to the ability of wrestler that they can carry someone of much much less ability to a MOTYC level match, and Bryan did that twice, and the biggest stage of them all with two entirely different performances; one as a main event babyface against Triple H in 2014, and once as a main event heel champion against Kofi Kingston in 2019.

    And you know what. Bryan Vs Nigel at Unified is as great as Steamboat/Flair to me. They're both 5 star matches just in different eras.

    Daniel Bryan has the career and the output of great matches DESPITE the anchor of having his peak years be in WWE where they largely didn't know what to do with him, wouldn't push him as a main event act and forced him into retirement for a few years. How much deeper could this already deep catalogue of matches be if instead of messing him around for years, we had 8-10 years of Daniel Bryan main events and WWE title matches. Even in 2020 when WWE is on it's knees creatively, there's Daniel Bryan still managing to put together a collection of matches that put him in WOTY conversations. The guy has always been fighting against the tide in WWE and it's the undeniable quality of his work that's forced WWE to push him to the level they do. Bryan is so fucking great, that he's forced Vince's hand to make him World champion a couple of times when clearly that's not what the company had in mind for him.

    I also think Bryan has more range than Flair as a performer by quite a wide margin. Bryan can operate with ease as a top level heel or babyface and can do the work rate heavy style in ROH, the TV entertainment New York style of WWE, family friendly style in CHIKARA, can do comedy matches (meta PWG stuff with Omega, Team Hell No stuff in WWE), can do hard hitting brawls (Morishma blow off, Necro Butcher PWG match, Nigel matches, Orton street fight). He excels everywhere he goes. What can't Bryan do? What's his weakness? Other than he didn't get to wrestle in 1989?

    I do think Flair is also excellent and would be in my top 5, it's just if I'm comparing Bryan to Flair, I know I'd rather watch Bryan. I think where it comes down to me is categories where Flair seems to be getting the nod over Bryan, are more about opportunity than ability. Flair does have more longevity than Bryan, but Flair is 71 and Bryan is still having his career at 39, so of course Flair would have more longevity. However considering Bryan is still a BITW performer as he approaches his 40s, there's absolutely nothing that suggests Bryan can't still be a great wrestler in 5 years time and beyond - when this question comes up in the future, you won't be able to use a longevity argument. Flair also for a number of reasons was booked higher up the card for longer periods of time than Bryan was so he has the opportunity to have those big main events and title programs that stick in the memory.

  8. #8
    The Only 2x WC HOF
    Shock's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    23,708
    Rep Power
    3151425
      Country                    Scotland

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    I've seen Flair have very good matches with Road Warrior Hawk, who is shitter than Bray Wyatt, Miz or Kofi as wrestlers. Flair has had many people's career match whether they were an all time great like Funk, someone good but flawed like Lex Luger, or someone terrible like a Road Warrior.

    Hell, even Flair's match at Taboo Tuesday with Triple H is a better match to me than Bryan vs Triple H.

    I don't even think I'd put 89 as Flair's best year, despite the classics. My point was that Flair had a year at 40 years old that I think is better than any Bryan year, and given that Bryan is undoubtedly not as good in 2020 as he was 10-15 years ago, it is a pretty safe assumption that Bryan won't have a peak year as good as Flair's.

    To Zero's point about Flair having all time great opponents, I agree and think that has some merit. But conversely, Flair has a lot of incredible matches against guys that aren't that calibre. Luger, Morton, Terry Taylor, Ron Garvin, Windham, Kerry von Erich, Brian Pillman all had magnificent matches with Flair, multiple times at that. He's had great matches as a babyface, great matches as a heel, great brawls, great 6 minute matches, great 60 minute matches, great TV matches, great old man garbage matches, larger than life main events with Hogan and Savage. Bryan beats Flair for versatility, but not by a great deal because Flair's best matches are all very different to one another. Flair vs Funk isn't like Steamboat, which isn't like Vader, which isn't like Luger, which isn't like Ronnie Garvin. I think people get too worked up on the Flair formula but to be honest I think that has been exaggerated because it became the staple of the post-peak Flair.

    A big deciding factor for me is that I've seen enough handheld footage to make a fair assumption that Flair was a very consistent wrestler. Now look at cagematch and see how many matches the man wrestled. Bryan has 1799 matches recorded on cagematch. Flair has 4580, of which 1000 came after 92 (probably around the point he began to drop off). How many great Flair matches have been lost to tape? This is a guy that would regularly wrestle 60 minutes on consecutive nights, sometimes having three matches on a single day.

    Let's not pretend that Bryan was ever not given countless opportunities. That feels like a weak argument. His first match in WWE was a decently long TV match against the then World champion. Within his first year he was given a workrate midcard title run (did superbly too) and regular opportunities to go out and have solid midcard matches. In the next two years he constantly got a lot of TV time and matches so he could deliver consistently good matches. He had multiple 25 minute matches with then WWE Champion CM Punk just over 2 years after debuting. Within 4 he had beaten John Cena clean at Summerslam and then main evented Wrestlemania. 4 years to a main event is not being neglected by any means. It's longevity at the top that hurt Bryan, not WWE. Which leads me on to the next point.

    If we are going to dissect the flaws of Flair, of which there are a few (as no wrestler is perfect) , then I will answer the flaws of Bryan. Its something I touched on with the Benoit vs Bret debate too.

    When I think of the best Bryan matches ever, my first instinct is Nigel then Morishima. Ask yourself, what is the standout spot in Bryan vs Nigel from Unified? What exactly is Bryan vs Morishima from Manhattan Mayhem 2 known for? You can talk about Flair having an advantage because of longevity and opportunities, but how can that be a negative when the reason Bryan missed 5 years of action is directly related to the style of wrestling he did in the 00s? I'm not a doctor but considering both men have cited the match, I feel comfortable making this assumption: the Bryan vs Nigel series, as amazing as it is, contributed to the end of the career of one wrestler and has significantly shortened the other. The Morishima match might have been dismissed as an unfortunate accident, until they make the eye the focus of that match and every subsequent match they had afterwards. Just to add drama and to try and take the match to the next level.

    As said in Benoit vs Bret, I think it is far more impressive to have a safe match that is great, than have a match where you damn near kill yourself to make it good. Steamboat and Flair is just a match, no gimmicks, no shocking injury or ridiculous high spots. It's just two of the best ever knocking it out the park for 60 minutes. Funk and Flair was a hate filled brawl but were they ever unsafe with each other?

    I'm not saying that this is every great Bryan match, but I think almost everyone would have the Nigel and Morishima matches in their top 5 Bryan matches. What happened when Flair broke his back? He changed his entire style, his physique and how he bumped to protect himself and further his career. What did Bryan do after missing time off with his concussion? After his return in 2015 he was headbutting Dolph Ziggler in matches and continuing to do the diving headbutt. Bearing in mind this is in a post-Benoit world, so you can't argue ignorance either (not that you ever could). I'd argue even in his current run there's an example of Bryan putting his neck and head at unnecessary risk for the purposes of the match (the Brock match comes to mind here).

    Flair has been guilty of this but only during his old man garbage match phase, not during his peak years because he didn't need that to have good matches.

    There's a reason Flair has more than 2000 more matches in his career than Bryan, and more than 1000 more at the equivalent stage in their respective careers. Bryan doesn't win the longevity argument and that's because his super exciting, high risk and hyper-real style of the 00s has consequences. Its great to watch, but I think deserves criticism when you are asking me to compare against a man like Flair who has a higher peak, tremendous consistency, and greater longevity.

    Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Shock; 06-24-2020 at 02:30 AM.







    The 100 Greatest WCW Matches - Coming Soon


    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1986 - 1995) - Coming Soon



    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1996 - 2005) - Completed



  9. #9

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    With all the shite that WCW put on in the 90s, does Flair have anything as good against a turd of a gimmick as The Fiend.
    Flair's entire gimmick was that he could work a three star match with a broomstick. Even in the shit that was WCW 2000, Flair was trying his best to churn out some of the better matches of the year.

  10. #10
    TAKE THE DREAM~

    MC 16's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    The Lesnar Farm
    Posts
    8,789
    Rep Power
    1463774
      Country                    England

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Flair wrestling as the Black Scorpion against Sting is a better match than any of the Fiend/Bryan matches. And that was Flair being unable to do anything because of the nature of the gimmick.

  11. #11
    Main Eventer
    indyfan's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    8,361
    Rep Power
    877475

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Wow this thing was at 14 to 14 this morning and now its 15 to 15.

    Whos going to come out on top?
    ROH 2003 - end of 2008 = best years of wrestling ever

  12. #12
    Admin in Lockdown

    Ed's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Dudley, England
    Posts
    39,348
    Rep Power
    4038927
      Country                    England

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    I forgot to reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I've seen Flair have very good matches with Road Warrior Hawk, who is shitter than Bray Wyatt, Miz or Kofi as wrestlers. Flair has had many people's career match whether they were an all time great like Funk, someone good but flawed like Lex Luger, or someone terrible like a Road Warrior.
    Feels like a tied point then as Daniel Bryan also had many people's career match.

    Hell, even Flair's match at Taboo Tuesday with Triple H is a better match to me than Bryan vs Triple H
    Agree to disagree here, the mania match is stronger to me. It didn't need the bells and whistles of gimmicks and blood to cover weaknesses, it stands on it's own merit of being a great singles match.

    I don't even think I'd put 89 as Flair's best year, despite the classics. My point was that Flair had a year at 40 years old that I think is better than any Bryan year, and given that Bryan is undoubtedly not as good in 2020 as he was 10-15 years ago, it is a pretty safe assumption that Bryan won't have a peak year as good as Flair's.
    Bryan might not have a single peak year as good as Flairs, but I'm not sure I'd put much stock into that to prove one wrestler is better than the other because it's too reliant on other variables like booking opportunities and injury records. I think it's better to look at a range of years, which I'm sure you'd still give to Flair but I at least think that's a fairer way to look at it.

    I actually don't know if I'd agree with Bryan being undoubtedly not as good as he was 10-15 years ago. Bryan at 39 despite every issue WWE creative throw at you is still having a WOTY level year, so I think the talent level is still there to have a year full of great matches but he's just not going to get the opportunity to really maximise his output working for WWE.

    A big deciding factor for me is that I've seen enough handheld footage to make a fair assumption that Flair was a very consistent wrestler. Now look at cagematch and see how many matches the man wrestled. Bryan has 1799 matches recorded on cagematch. Flair has 4580, of which 1000 came after 92 (probably around the point he began to drop off). How many great Flair matches have been lost to tape? This is a guy that would regularly wrestle 60 minutes on consecutive nights, sometimes having three matches on a single day.
    Rather hypothetical point, but I'd agree Flair was a consistent wrestler. However, I've often wondered this point on footage before and how availability and the cherry picking can mould opinions and reputations on wrestlers. Pretty much every Kazuchika Okada match from his main event push has been available in the last 8 years, including all the times he has tag matches that are a waste of time to watch so we can't pretend his hit rate is extremely high. On the flip side, to pick a random beloved Japanese wrestler from the past, Misawa is thought of as one of the greatest ever but how many are basing that opinion based on watching world tag league finals and triple crown title matches - most people are not watching the tournament matches against the lesser opponents (if they're even available) or the many many touring tag matches. When it's older wrestlers that we didn't experience in real time we gravitate to the footage that's available starting with the most heralded and very rarely will we watch these guys have a bad match during their career because why would you hunt those matches out. Wrestlers in the modern era don't get that, almost everything is taped and almost everything can be watched by fans so it's way easier to catch the off night for Okada. My point here is maybe it wouldn't boost Ric's reputation if you could watch the 3 matches he did on a random Saturday in 1984, it might highlight some matches aren't so great or he does the same match 3 times and by the 3rd time it comes off less impressive, higher exposure won't always be a good thing.

    And it goes without saying but fondness for styles plays a part here, because the availability of more Ric Flair 60 minute broadways wouldn't warm me up to a pro Flair vote when I do not enjoy the 60 minute broadway match and think it's more impressive to wrestle matches that don't stall for time so much. I've mentioned it in my Bryan reviews before that I don't even like it that much when early Bryan goes that long.

    Let's not pretend that Bryan was ever not given countless opportunities. That feels like a weak argument. His first match in WWE was a decently long TV match against the then World champion. Within his first year he was given a workrate midcard title run (did superbly too) and regular opportunities to go out and have solid midcard matches. In the next two years he constantly got a lot of TV time and matches so he could deliver consistently good matches. He had multiple 25 minute matches with then WWE Champion CM Punk just over 2 years after debuting. Within 4 he had beaten John Cena clean at Summerslam and then main evented Wrestlemania. 4 years to a main event is not being neglected by any means. It's longevity at the top that hurt Bryan, not WWE.
    But it's WWE that's to blame for Bryan's lack of longevity at the top, so WWE has hurt Bryan's case! They forced him into retirement in his mid 30s, they are the ones that won't put him as a consistent main eventer because of his height, they are the ones that filled his run to the top of the card with Authority figure nonsense angles.

    When I think of the best Bryan matches ever, my first instinct is Nigel then Morishima. Ask yourself, what is the standout spot in Bryan vs Nigel from Unified? What exactly is Bryan vs Morishima from Manhattan Mayhem 2 known for? You can talk about Flair having an advantage because of longevity and opportunities, but how can that be a negative when the reason Bryan missed 5 years of action is directly related to the style of wrestling he did in the 00s? I'm not a doctor but considering both men have cited the match, I feel comfortable making this assumption: the Bryan vs Nigel series, as amazing as it is, contributed to the end of the career of one wrestler and has significantly shortened the other. The Morishima match might have been dismissed as an unfortunate accident, until they make the eye the focus of that match and every subsequent match they had afterwards. Just to add drama and to try and take the match to the next level.
    I don't think Flair really has the high ground on what wrestling puts your body through when it's a miracle Flair is still alive because of his alcoholism. If you're gonna start saying it's a flaw of Bryan's working style that it's led him to have some injuries in his 30s (despite the fact he's still a healthy guy and is working at the highest level going into his 40s) then I think be consistent and apply that to Flair too who hit it hard at the bar to cope with the pain (he claims he never had a pain pill because drink did that for him) of hitting it hard in the ring wrestling up to several hours per day at some points in his career.

    As said in Benoit vs Bret, I think it is far more impressive to have a safe match that is great, than have a match where you damn near kill yourself to make it good. Steamboat and Flair is just a match, no gimmicks, no shocking injury or ridiculous high spots. It's just two of the best ever knocking it out the park for 60 minutes. Funk and Flair was a hate filled brawl but were they ever unsafe with each other?

    I'm not saying that this is every great Bryan match, but I think almost everyone would have the Nigel and Morishima matches in their top 5 Bryan matches. What happened when Flair broke his back? He changed his entire style, his physique and how he bumped to protect himself and further his career. What did Bryan do after missing time off with his concussion? After his return in 2015 he was headbutting Dolph Ziggler in matches and continuing to do the diving headbutt. Bearing in mind this is in a post-Benoit world, so you can't argue ignorance either (not that you ever could). I'd argue even in his current run there's an example of Bryan putting his neck and head at unnecessary risk for the purposes of the match (the Brock match comes to mind here).
    Shock this really comes off hypocritical because on twitter a few weeks ago you said Misawa was the greatest wrestler you've ever seen, but he's someone that died in the ring because of his style. Where's the Helen Lovejoy reactions for Misawa working an unsafe style and docking him a few points on the GOAT scale because when you think of Kobashi/Misawa, you think of the bumps on the neck and if he was truly great he'd of worked a safer style to extend his career. idk I don't get this damning of Bryan's style that hasn't come up in any other tournament round of his. Bryan isn't Dynamite Kid or Misawa or Angle where he's broken down, Bryan's still a top class wrestler.

    And the Gulak match from the Elimination Chamber to me is a fine example of Bryan working a great match in a safer style. In fact most of his 2020 matches have been this way, so he HAS changed his style, inaccurate to say he hasn't.

    There's a reason Flair has more than 2000 more matches in his career than Bryan, and more than 1000 more at the equivalent stage in their respective careers. Bryan doesn't win the longevity argument and that's because his super exciting, high risk and hyper-real style of the 00s has consequences. Its great to watch, but I think deserves criticism when you are asking me to compare against a man like Flair who has a higher peak, tremendous consistency, and greater longevity.
    Well I think there's more than one reason for that than it's just the style of the wrestlers The average wrestler in the 2010s does wrestle less matches than the average wrestler in the 1980s would because that's how the business has evolved.

    Daniel Bryan wrestled more times in 2019 than Randy Orton did, that's a fairer comparison of expectations of a wrestler, and who would you say has the safer in-ring style out of those two? I think you're stretching here with that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Flair's entire gimmick was that he could work a three star match with a broomstick. Even in the shit that was WCW 2000, Flair was trying his best to churn out some of the better matches of the year.
    Bray Wyatt isn't a broomstick, that's an insult to broomsticks, he goes beyond being someone that needs carrying because he's bland and he isn't a good wrestler. He's a bad wrestler with an all time terrible gimmick that has some unique characteristics that need to be overcome to put on something very good. Bray Wyatt is someone that actively makes wrestling a joke and halts the momentum of all his opponents. He's an anti-wrestler.

    I'm not gonna do a WCW 2000 to WWE 2020 comparison, but WWE main roster is in one of it's worst creative periods I've ever seen in the last 20 years, and yet there's Daniel Bryan having THE best matches of the company all year. You might even say in this unique period of time, Bryan's yet again proven to be a master of versatility because he can have a great match in an empty arena, a situation so many are struggling in.

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    Flair wrestling as the Black Scorpion against Sting is a better match than any of the Fiend/Bryan matches. And that was Flair being unable to do anything because of the nature of the gimmick.
    I think you're really in the minority of you honestly think Sting Vs Black Scorpion was a better match than Bryan/Bray from 2014.
    Last edited by Ed; 06-28-2020 at 07:48 PM.

  13. #13
    The Only 2x WC HOF
    Shock's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    23,708
    Rep Power
    3151425
      Country                    Scotland

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Just a few points because some of it is just going to be "I prefer this match, year, style".


    I think Bryan is undoubtedly better in 2006 than he is today. In the fourteen years since his ROH run he's never had a year as good as that where he churned out great match after great match with everybody. I think its a stretch to assume he's still as good when we have 10 years of him wrestling where he isn't at that level. Bryan is still incredible of course, but back in ROH he was definitely at his peak.


    Bryan was refused by WWE doctors after a history of concussions and the fact they didn't want a Benoit situation on their hands. WWE were, for once, following the advice of their doctors. As we've seen with Edge, circumstances can change with regards to forced retirement, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the correct call at that moment.


    Flair's alcoholism has no bearing to how he wrestled in the ring and despite that he was still an incredibly safe worker in his career.


    Wrt to the Misawa point, its not hypocritical at all and I think that's a narrow viewpoint that misses what I'm talking about. I have said that no wrestler is perfect, and I am not pretending that Flair, Bryan or Misawa are perfect. It is about looking critically at what makes a good wrestler good, and what their flaws are. I can readily accept that any wrestler is flawed. Just because a wrestler wrestles a dangerous style doesn't mean I can't enjoy them. Bryan is in my top 5 wrestlers ever, Benoit would make my top 10. There are a shit load of factors that go into determining who is better than who,and this is one of several that leads me to prefer Flair.

    It didn't come up in previous rounds because until the semi and the final, I didn't have any match up worth discussing in depth for Bryan. It's not a new point I brought up just to stick it to Bryan, it was one of the factors I brought up for Benoit in his vs Bret round. It is a legitimate and pertinent point because if someone is trying to give reasons for Flair's superior longevity and consistency, then I should challenge this back and explain why you can't dismiss it since it's an internal factor that led to Bryan's shortened career, not an external factor, e.g. Owen Hart (to use an extreme example).

    If I would compare Flair and Misawa I would start with their high end matches, where Misawa looks far more favourably in comparison to Flair than Bryan who falls considerably short in my view. There's plenty of factors to consider, don't pretend I'm being narrow minded about this when I think its clear from the threads that I have been very open about my views and take a lot into consideration when it comes to who is a better wrestler.

    The point is, if you are going to try and claim that longevity and opportunity is the reason for Flair having a greater resume, then your next step should be to ask yourself why. Why did Flair's body hold up for so many more years and matches? Is it truly just chance, or is there a factor that isn't being considered. Given Bryan's style, what we know about his concussions and the matches he's had in the past. I think the reason Bryan doesn't have the longevity of Flair, even comparing the two as 39 year olds, is directly linked to their respective styles. Therefore it's worth referencing when people try and argue the longevity point with stuff like Flair had more opportunities.


    Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Shock; 06-28-2020 at 10:53 PM.







    The 100 Greatest WCW Matches - Coming Soon


    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1986 - 1995) - Coming Soon



    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1996 - 2005) - Completed



  14. #14
    WAKE UP

    Status
    Online
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    33,662
    Rep Power
    1195305

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Strong points from both sides here.

    I really don't have an awful lot to add despite these being two of my all time favourites. I went with Bryan, but it was close. I think he did a better job of mixing things up through his career (obviously, not to say Flair didn't). While Flair is an all-time great formula guy who could plug guys into his match and tear it down, I think Bryan at his best did BOTH playing to his opponent's strengths and plugging them into a winning formula. He has to be one of the most intelligent workers I've ever seen. 80s Flair vs 2000s Bryan is a real Sophie's Choice but I think Bryan did more with less in terms of calibre of opponents, and I'd be inclined to take 2010s WWE Bryan over 90s Flair too. Will Bryan still be able to tear it down in his old age like Flair could in some of those big old man bloody brawls? Hard to say, but I don't think it's difficult to imagine someone like him adapting to his physical limitations as he gets older.


    EDIT - Love that this is a tie. If I was to name my Top 3 GOATs in the US it would be these 2 and Funk I think.

  15. #15
    Admin in Lockdown

    Ed's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Dudley, England
    Posts
    39,348
    Rep Power
    4038927
      Country                    England

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Quick point Steve. You haven't entered a time for this poll to close, like Terry Funk this is going to go on forever.

    What do you want me to edit the closing time too?
    Last edited by Ed; 06-29-2020 at 05:46 AM.

  16. #16
    WAKE UP

    Status
    Online
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    33,662
    Rep Power
    1195305

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vO05r9YOfo


    Yeah go ahead and add it for this Friday and let's see who wins.

  17. #17
    The Only 2x WC HOF
    Shock's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    23,708
    Rep Power
    3151425
      Country                    Scotland

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    EDIT - Love that this is a tie. If I was to name my Top 3 GOATs in the US it would be these 2 and Funk I think.
    Yeah I agree (though I personally would chuck Rey into that conversation). I'm glad that the final has been one of the more competitive polls we've had.

    Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk







    The 100 Greatest WCW Matches - Coming Soon


    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1986 - 1995) - Coming Soon



    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1996 - 2005) - Completed



  18. #18

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    Bray Wyatt isn't a broomstick, that's an insult to broomsticks, he goes beyond being someone that needs carrying because he's bland and he isn't a good wrestler. He's a bad wrestler with an all time terrible gimmick that has some unique characteristics that need to be overcome to put on something very good. Bray Wyatt is someone that actively makes wrestling a joke and halts the momentum of all his opponents. He's an anti-wrestler.

    I'm not gonna do a WCW 2000 to WWE 2020 comparison, but WWE main roster is in one of it's worst creative periods I've ever seen in the last 20 years, and yet there's Daniel Bryan having THE best matches of the company all year. You might even say in this unique period of time, Bryan's yet again proven to be a master of versatility because he can have a great match in an empty arena, a situation so many are struggling in.
    I'm sure you can say a lot of bad about WWE 2020, but WCW 2000 was the dirt worst. There was so little quality in the company that even someone as average as Booker T was hailed as one of the best of the company. Anyone who had any shred of talent was greatly hindered by awful creative with the weak wrestlers putting on even worse matches as a result.

    If Bray Wyatt was in WCW 2000, I'd argue he would be an above average talent that would likely struggle to produce quality because it'd be too easy to book him in horrific gimmick matches against Sting, Vampiro, The KISS Demon, ect.

  19. #19
    Admin in Lockdown

    Ed's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Dudley, England
    Posts
    39,348
    Rep Power
    4038927
      Country                    England

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    They went broadway.

  20. #20
    The Only 2x WC HOF
    Shock's Avatar

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    23,708
    Rep Power
    3151425
      Country                    Scotland

    Re: THE FINALS: RIC MF FLAIR vs DANIEL MF BRYAN

    "5 more minutes! “

    Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk







    The 100 Greatest WCW Matches - Coming Soon


    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1986 - 1995) - Coming Soon



    The 100 Greatest WWE Matches (1996 - 2005) - Completed



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •