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Thread: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

  1. #41

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Postman Dave View Post
    Agreed with voting in Punk first. I think I nommed him last year, and will probably do the same this year.

    I know we're talking semantics here, but I don't really consider Punk to be an Indy darling at this point. I'd say his fame is more thanks to WWE now, whereas I think people would still associate Hero more with the Independents.

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    I mean he got more famous from the WWE but even if he'd never been signed, Punk would be renowned to this day as a legendary indie wrestler (and honestly might still be wrestling without VKM driving his passion for it into the ground).

    Punk and Bryan were guys so big that even I had seen some of their stuff before they hit the big leagues and I barely ever left the WWE/TNA bubble back then.



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  2. #42
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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    I'll start by saying this - I don't think Hero is retiring. In the picture he tweeted out the boots say Kassius, so to me that's him saying the character Kassius Ohno is retired. The guy was still getting the most out of the opportunities WWE gave him so it's not like he was performing like someone that needed to hang them up. Unlike some of the people recently released, I think Hero is one of the more humble guys who can find plenty of enjoyment in wrestling on the indies and I think he'll be offered plenty of bookings that will interest him once the world returns to normal. So I know Dave was just throwing the conversation out there, but I highly doubt it's something we'll have to consider in December.

    Hypothetically though, I would consider Chris Hero a HOF candidate if he retired today. When we did the best workers of 2015-2019 project, Hero finished 10th and that's with WWE preventing him from being one of the best in the world. In 2015 and 2016 he absolutely was a WOTYC. He is one of the best wrestlers of his generation and has almost 2 decades of work to his name. He's not a superstar, and his lack of success in WWE is a shame, but I'd counter that by saying he's been one of the biggest stars in independent wrestling history and he would of influenced a lot of wrestlers who crossed paths with him.

    Punk should go in before him. Hero's the better wrestler, but Punk was obviously the bigger star and his influence on WWE shouldn't be forgotten. Plus Punk will not be adding anything more to his resume to change that and is retired so should probably go in first.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Even Kenny Omega should go in to a HOF and was more "influential" than Punk. His ROH run? He wasn't bad, but of the time period others did much better and even his series with Joe mostly doesn't hold up. Once he was signed he had an occasional highlight but was mostly mediocre in every way for then had one memorable angle in his entire WWE career and even that did a buyrate in his main event that wasn't significantly more impressive than R-Truth's main event one month prior. After that major angle then what? Total Shit for months and months followed by a year+ long title reign whose only memorable moments were with the one who actually was influential and great that all of Punk's fanbase try to latch onto and lump Punk in with when it's never been true in Daniel Bryan. What great matches did he have? Rock? Cena had a better one. Brock? Many had better ones. Even with Bryan what MOTYCs spawned from that feud? Randy Orton, someone who has never been any good had better matches with Bryan than Punk did. Then the close of his career, being the locker room cancer that he is and having no problem going over 1 on 3 on the Shield when he bitched and moaned to high heaven at having to put over the Undertaker and Brock, and having questionable knowledge of the appropriate size of softballs. I've never heard anyone say they want to be a wrestler because of him outside of his buddies and fanbase claiming him as this influential figure to wrestling. Cool story bro because just as I predicted at the time the Pipebomb meant nothing in the grand scheme of things and it must be a shame that it's all but been forgotten among a large portion of the current fanbase. Someone like AJ & Bryan are the in-ring inspirations along with the high flyers of this generation. Case in point: Nobody coming up worth a crap wrestles like Punk now nor will they, they wrestle like those guys.

    Punk is slightly younger Edge. A small subset of fans got SUPER into his gimmick and lost all touch with the reality of the performer to proclaim him the god of wrestling despite him really not having any personal effect and it being other people surrounding him who have all the great matches and moments. Now he's in his rightful place, a laughingstock of the business with no value that can barely get people to watch him sell himself out week after week on backstage after people told me he would save the show and make Backstage appointments viewing. If he showed up on Raw the first show with fans back it would be just like Edge, it wouldn't make a hint of difference to ratings or anyone except his own preconditioned fanbase who idolize his prime 15 months of fame. And his matches would be just as bad as Edge's too now. He will be completely forgotten in a decade outside of that same small subset of fans who will tell younger fans about how Punk was the greatest and was "real wrestling" and then the younger fans will look up him up and they'll say "...you liked THAT guy?".

  4. #44
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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    I'd go for a CM Punk induction.
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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Even Kenny Omega should go in to a HOF and was more "influential" than Punk. His ROH run? He wasn't bad, but of the time period others did much better and even his series with Joe mostly doesn't hold up. Once he was signed he had an occasional highlight but was mostly mediocre in every way for then had one memorable angle in his entire WWE career and even that did a buyrate in his main event that wasn't significantly more impressive than R-Truth's main event one month prior. After that major angle then what? Total Shit for months and months followed by a year+ long title reign whose only memorable moments were with the one who actually was influential and great that all of Punk's fanbase try to latch onto and lump Punk in with when it's never been true in Daniel Bryan. What great matches did he have? Rock? Cena had a better one. Brock? Many had better ones. Even with Bryan what MOTYCs spawned from that feud? Randy Orton, someone who has never been any good had better matches with Bryan than Punk did. Then the close of his career, being the locker room cancer that he is and having no problem going over 1 on 3 on the Shield when he bitched and moaned to high heaven at having to put over the Undertaker and Brock, and having questionable knowledge of the appropriate size of softballs. I've never heard anyone say they want to be a wrestler because of him outside of his buddies and fanbase claiming him as this influential figure to wrestling. Cool story bro because just as I predicted at the time the Pipebomb meant nothing in the grand scheme of things and it must be a shame that it's all but been forgotten among a large portion of the current fanbase. Someone like AJ & Bryan are the in-ring inspirations along with the high flyers of this generation. Case in point: Nobody coming up worth a crap wrestles like Punk now nor will they, they wrestle like those guys.

    Punk is slightly younger Edge. A small subset of fans got SUPER into his gimmick and lost all touch with the reality of the performer to proclaim him the god of wrestling despite him really not having any personal effect and it being other people surrounding him who have all the great matches and moments. Now he's in his rightful place, a laughingstock of the business with no value that can barely get people to watch him sell himself out week after week on backstage after people told me he would save the show and make Backstage appointments viewing. If he showed up on Raw the first show with fans back it would be just like Edge, it wouldn't make a hint of difference to ratings or anyone except his own preconditioned fanbase who idolize his prime 15 months of fame. And his matches would be just as bad as Edge's too now. He will be completely forgotten in a decade outside of that same small subset of fans who will tell younger fans about how Punk was the greatest and was "real wrestling" and then the younger fans will look up him up and they'll say "...you liked THAT guy?".
    ...so what you're saying is that you were a big CM Punk fan?

  6. #46
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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Even Kenny Omega should go in to a HOF and was more "influential" than Punk. His ROH run? He wasn't bad, but of the time period others did much better and even his series with Joe mostly doesn't hold up. Once he was signed he had an occasional highlight but was mostly mediocre in every way for then had one memorable angle in his entire WWE career and even that did a buyrate in his main event that wasn't significantly more impressive than R-Truth's main event one month prior. After that major angle then what? Total Shit for months and months followed by a year+ long title reign whose only memorable moments were with the one who actually was influential and great that all of Punk's fanbase try to latch onto and lump Punk in with when it's never been true in Daniel Bryan. What great matches did he have? Rock? Cena had a better one. Brock? Many had better ones. Even with Bryan what MOTYCs spawned from that feud? Randy Orton, someone who has never been any good had better matches with Bryan than Punk did. Then the close of his career, being the locker room cancer that he is and having no problem going over 1 on 3 on the Shield when he bitched and moaned to high heaven at having to put over the Undertaker and Brock, and having questionable knowledge of the appropriate size of softballs. I've never heard anyone say they want to be a wrestler because of him outside of his buddies and fanbase claiming him as this influential figure to wrestling. Cool story bro because just as I predicted at the time the Pipebomb meant nothing in the grand scheme of things and it must be a shame that it's all but been forgotten among a large portion of the current fanbase. Someone like AJ & Bryan are the in-ring inspirations along with the high flyers of this generation. Case in point: Nobody coming up worth a crap wrestles like Punk now nor will they, they wrestle like those guys.

    Punk is slightly younger Edge. A small subset of fans got SUPER into his gimmick and lost all touch with the reality of the performer to proclaim him the god of wrestling despite him really not having any personal effect and it being other people surrounding him who have all the great matches and moments. Now he's in his rightful place, a laughingstock of the business with no value that can barely get people to watch him sell himself out week after week on backstage after people told me he would save the show and make Backstage appointments viewing. If he showed up on Raw the first show with fans back it would be just like Edge, it wouldn't make a hint of difference to ratings or anyone except his own preconditioned fanbase who idolize his prime 15 months of fame. And his matches would be just as bad as Edge's too now. He will be completely forgotten in a decade outside of that same small subset of fans who will tell younger fans about how Punk was the greatest and was "real wrestling" and then the younger fans will look up him up and they'll say "...you liked THAT guy?".
    He actually said him winning 3 on 1 was a dumb idea if they wanted to put over the Shield, specifically Roman. It's the basis for the "Roman must look strong" meme.

  7. #47
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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    He actually said him winning 3 on 1 was a dumb idea if they wanted to put over the Shield, specifically Roman. It's the basis for the "Roman must look strong" meme.
    One of the best parts of the Cabana podcast "You gotta make Roman look Reeeeeaaally strong"

    I definitely disagree with Zero's assessment on Punk. He got his legs cut out from under him right when he was getting white hot off the back of the summer of 2011. Once they had Triple H beat him for no good reason at all, everything went downhill. And the reason his 434 day title reign isn't memorable is because even though he had the title, he was never the main focus. He was hardly ever, if ever, the main event for PPVs, because everything was still centered around Cena. If he had a chance to actually be the main focus of the show after the summer, there's no telling what might have been.

  8. #48

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Even Kenny Omega should go in to a HOF and was more "influential" than Punk. His ROH run? He wasn't bad, but of the time period others did much better and even his series with Joe mostly doesn't hold up. Once he was signed he had an occasional highlight but was mostly mediocre in every way for then had one memorable angle in his entire WWE career and even that did a buyrate in his main event that wasn't significantly more impressive than R-Truth's main event one month prior. After that major angle then what? Total Shit for months and months followed by a year+ long title reign whose only memorable moments were with the one who actually was influential and great that all of Punk's fanbase try to latch onto and lump Punk in with when it's never been true in Daniel Bryan. What great matches did he have? Rock? Cena had a better one. Brock? Many had better ones. Even with Bryan what MOTYCs spawned from that feud? Randy Orton, someone who has never been any good had better matches with Bryan than Punk did. Then the close of his career, being the locker room cancer that he is and having no problem going over 1 on 3 on the Shield when he bitched and moaned to high heaven at having to put over the Undertaker and Brock, and having questionable knowledge of the appropriate size of softballs. I've never heard anyone say they want to be a wrestler because of him outside of his buddies and fanbase claiming him as this influential figure to wrestling. Cool story bro because just as I predicted at the time the Pipebomb meant nothing in the grand scheme of things and it must be a shame that it's all but been forgotten among a large portion of the current fanbase. Someone like AJ & Bryan are the in-ring inspirations along with the high flyers of this generation. Case in point: Nobody coming up worth a crap wrestles like Punk now nor will they, they wrestle like those guys.

    Punk is slightly younger Edge. A small subset of fans got SUPER into his gimmick and lost all touch with the reality of the performer to proclaim him the god of wrestling despite him really not having any personal effect and it being other people surrounding him who have all the great matches and moments. Now he's in his rightful place, a laughingstock of the business with no value that can barely get people to watch him sell himself out week after week on backstage after people told me he would save the show and make Backstage appointments viewing. If he showed up on Raw the first show with fans back it would be just like Edge, it wouldn't make a hint of difference to ratings or anyone except his own preconditioned fanbase who idolize his prime 15 months of fame. And his matches would be just as bad as Edge's too now. He will be completely forgotten in a decade outside of that same small subset of fans who will tell younger fans about how Punk was the greatest and was "real wrestling" and then the younger fans will look up him up and they'll say "...you liked THAT guy?".
    I mean, nah, bro. Just nah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    =Cool story bro because just as I predicted at the time the Pipebomb meant nothing in the grand scheme of things and it must be a shame that it's all but been forgotten among a large portion of the current fanbase.
    And even more nah. What kind of bubble do you live in where you think people forgot about the Pipebomb? If it's not the biggest promo of the decade I don't know what is.



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  9. #49
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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Punk still got his name chanted in WWE on a regular basis after he left. People aren't going to forget him, he was incredibly popular. He might not be some needle moving star but neither was Bryan or most people in recent history.

    Punk had plenty of great matches to his name, and he was the first of the mid 00s ROH indy darlings to make it, get over, and become champion in WWE. For better or worse that's set a formula for WWE for the better part of 5 years. Now we have a much different set of talent in WWE. What do you think WWE would be like if Punk's run bombed? Would they be so willing to go out and give big opportunities pushes to guys like Bryan, Rollins, etc?

    Whether you think he's overrated as a wrestler or not, he was over way above his push at every point of his WWE career. He's one of the better talkers in recent history. I'd really disagree about his one memorable angle considering he had the whole Jeff Hardy feud, until the momentum was killed by him losing the title to Undertaker right afterwards. The SES was excellent until they had the rug pulled from under him. It's a running pattern. Despite that he still stayed popular, relevant, and still came back as one of the more entertaining, popular, and compelling guys on the roster.

    The only rough part of his WWE run as a performer were those initial years where he was just a generic guy. Despite that he was still popular almost immediately.

    Punk's wrestling wasn't the smoothest but I've rarely watched him and thought he was hurting a match. Even a match that I really don't rate (vs Jericho at Wrestlemania) is more bad because of the booking more than anything, otherwise its totally fine. He was what he was. A mostly good wrestler, with the potential to produce great (and even sometimes all time great) matches.

    Your Orton point doesn't work for me either, Zero. Adam Pearce had a better match with Brent Albright than Bryan, Claudio and Nigel did. Lots of wrestlers have good stuff when they probably shouldn't and others (e.g. Austin and Undertaker) might never mesh well together. I loved Orton and Bryan and I loved Punk and Bryan. And I wouldn't suggest it's a strong argument to use those matches to try and suggest anything about the other's quality.

    Finally, I think you seem to think that people are saying Punk, as a wrestler, is a Bryan or AJ level talent. Punk was very good, those two are all time great talents. There's a lot of guys that are in our HOF, or will be, that don't touch them. But what Punk may not have in the in-ring side (which again I think was excellent on the whole) he made up for with his incredible character work on screen whether it's in a match or not.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Punk still got his name chanted in WWE on a regular basis after he left. People aren't going to forget him, he was incredibly popular. He might not be some needle moving star but neither was Bryan or most people in recent history.

    Punk had plenty of great matches to his name, and he was the first of the mid 00s ROH indy darlings to make it, get over, and become champion in WWE. For better or worse that's set a formula for WWE for the better part of 5 years. Now we have a much different set of talent in WWE. What do you think WWE would be like if Punk's run bombed? Would they be so willing to go out and give big opportunities pushes to guys like Bryan, Rollins, etc?

    Whether you think he's overrated as a wrestler or not, he was over way above his push at every point of his WWE career. He's one of the better talkers in recent history. I'd really disagree about his one memorable angle considering he had the whole Jeff Hardy feud, until the momentum was killed by him losing the title to Undertaker right afterwards. The SES was excellent until they had the rug pulled from under him. It's a running pattern. Despite that he still stayed popular, relevant, and still came back as one of the more entertaining, popular, and compelling guys on the roster.

    The only rough part of his WWE run as a performer were those initial years where he was just a generic guy. Despite that he was still popular almost immediately.

    Punk's wrestling wasn't the smoothest but I've rarely watched him and thought he was hurting a match. Even a match that I really don't rate (vs Jericho at Wrestlemania) is more bad because of the booking more than anything, otherwise its totally fine. He was what he was. A mostly good wrestler, with the potential to produce great (and even sometimes all time great) matches.

    Your Orton point doesn't work for me either, Zero. Adam Pearce had a better match with Brent Albright than Bryan, Claudio and Nigel did. Lots of wrestlers have good stuff when they probably shouldn't and others (e.g. Austin and Undertaker) might never mesh well together. I loved Orton and Bryan and I loved Punk and Bryan. And I wouldn't suggest it's a strong argument to use those matches to try and suggest anything about the other's quality.

    Finally, I think you seem to think that people are saying Punk, as a wrestler, is a Bryan or AJ level talent. Punk was very good, those two are all time great talents. There's a lot of guys that are in our HOF, or will be, that don't touch them. But what Punk may not have in the in-ring side (which again I think was excellent on the whole) he made up for with his incredible character work on screen whether it's in a match or not.

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    What legacy does that Jeff Hardy feud have? I won't lie, I did forget about it and it was quality character work even though the matches weren't very good. The SES stuff was mega overrated and just an excuse to let him cut long and self serving promos like he was the second coming of Triple H. (I know many people claim HHH is a great promo. I strongly disagree and Punk was much the same in that it was clear he truly believed he was knocking it out of the park and everyone loved hearing his voice as much as he did. How many 20 minute Punk promos have there been throughout history that never led to anything special) What was his most memorable match from that era anyway? HOF caliber match? Money promos? There weren't any and those angles never got interest outside of his own fanbase who thought it was the best stuff in the company, none of that stuff did.

    I won't deny there were times Punk delivered. His ROH work was massively, massively overrated IMO and mostly talked about by people with nostalgia. Anyone I've seen go back says it's clear he wasn't a top tier ROH worker at the time. Even then he was more known for his character work, there's no denying The Summer of Punk was a great angle and yet in his last match in Philly vs. Daniels the match got "boring" chants. He just wasn't very good in ROH. I would say he was never good but I think he had his moments at least to trick people into thinking he was. Like a pre-latest heel turn Sasha Banks and especially in WWE. To me him vs. Cena was one of the better Raw matches (I actually thought much better as a match than MITB though the hometown crowd obviously made that more memorable) and it wasn't all Cena. That "arms too short to box with god" promo against Rock was excellent by any fair analysis. But if you dissect him closer you can see a ton of flaws in his game. Let me give a fair analysis ot brother Punk as a performer:

    Pros:
    *No pun intended, but he really could be considered a cult of personality. He had a way of drawing people into his character and truly caring about it. I think the number of people in said fanbase is not Hall of fame caliber, but there's no doubt that if you liked him, you pretty much loved him and will overlook any flaws he may have had, fair or foul. Even when he has shown his colors as a human being and his non-wreatling failures, you can guarantee the Punk Defense Force will be out to some extent to put him over. Very few wrestlers could have that kind of loyalty over the years, no matter how many people it is in reality.

    *His ego - This is a double sided sword, but to be great you have to have faith in yourself and he had it. Not just in how much he should have been pushed but even in-ring, he's never been afraid to try different things in-ring even if it failed or looked bad, he never seemed to care too much and just seemed to do what he wanted to which is admirable.

    *His charisma both on the mic and in the ring was strong stuff. It almost makes me physically ill to admit this about him, but I thought he was a truly fantastic commentator and got to show it and he knew how to carry himself on his entrance and in-ring.

    *Big Match Performer: When he was locked in, there's no doubt he had big moments. Multiple times vs. Cena, Undertaker, Joe & Aries in ROH, I don't consider those Bryan matches HOF level but they're good enough I won't completely downplay them if you want to count them. Coincidentally those were some of the biggest matches of his career which also lends to his reputation among his fans.

    *His timing in his rise was almost a zeitgeist of being so different from everyone else aesthetically he stood out and helped him maintain interest regardless of what he did.

    *Unfortunately for him at the time but ultimately good for his legacy which he gleefully used to his advantage immediately post-WWE, he's perhaps the biggest victim of Triple H's even bigger ego and insecurities forcing him to ensure Punk's biggest angle would get snuffed out at its apex. It only added to who he was to so many people after falling victim to political nonsense.

    *I would say his greatest asset is his mind. This is an EXTREMELY smart and cunning individual and he knew exactly what buttons to press during this zeitgeist and maintained himself. Who doesn't know he is the voice of the voiceless and the best in the world? And what better time than when WWE was panned by nearly everyone in desperate need of change? He tailored his gimmick to be where he's in this discussion in the first place and establish his legacy.

    -

    Negatives:
    *His ego - Having confidence is good and there's a way this could have been a full positive but with Punk's mindset it bled into nearly every aspect of his work and not for the better to the point where the negatives vastly outweighed the positives overall.

    *First of all, from an in-ring perspective for every big match he had there were dozens where he didn't even put effort in and bring it to the level of his opponents, and it was seemingly always coinciding when he wasn't booked exactly as he felt should be, which he has more or less admitted multiple times. He's far from the first to have a pouty face, but with his large ego "not booked exactly as he felt he should be" is a regular occurrence.

    *On promos again, I recognize many think of him as a great promo, and yeah the Pipebomb was awesome. But 99% of the time he just bloveated on and on and very rarely had actual substance to nearly anything he ever actually said on the mic, his good promos ended up being few and far between. Again, Triple H is someone that is the world's greatest offender of this but Punk had plenty of times where he was unbearable despite him believing he was the greatest mic worker who ever lived. And ultimately what is his legacy as a talker? Cutting internet fan troll promos? It's like when people on here claimed Elias was awesome. Literally anybody could do what he did. If I were to grade Punk on the mic, it would be a cross between Triple H & Shane Douglas, although of the two Shane got more heat with his "shoot promos".

    *He just wasn't very talented physically at all, living down to his background of angry scenester who never played sports. Even his biggest fans can't deny his sloppiness, and from a wrestlers perspective. It took me two weeks to figure out my dropkicks sucked, so I stopped doing them! And yet for 10 years we had to suffer through his atrocious faux-KENTA offense with his shitty GTS, and then even a basic elbow drop he added later was one of the worst ever and every week he would do it. But unfortunately his ego made him incapable of seeing his own faults and he refused to change and keep doing stuff he just couldn't effectively and it severely effected his career from a wrestling perspective.

    *His attempt at facial selling was by no means as bad as guys like Omega or Ospreay but he ventured far too often into cartoon land and I would rate him as mediocre overall at selling.

    -

    I know this is an essay level post so I'll wrap this up with a very important point because Shock, I respect your knowledge of this wrestling game a lot. But this idea of him being influential and changing things and making things better in WWE is hands down one of the biggest lies in wrestling history. In fact you could easily argue him and his influence made the things wrong in WWE worse. Again, Bryan is the one that was under 6 feet whereas Punk was 6'2. Bryan was the one that was a great worker. Bryan was the one who had the rug pulled out from under him. Punk had year long title reigns and multiple matches with The Rock and yet Bryan was the one that gained mainstream sports popularity. And yet here we are discussing Punk on the same level of influence when in reality just as I mentioned Punk's promos were ultimately extremely shallow. Much like I mentioned in another thread Cornette's rep is carefully calculated bullshit that people lap up because it's been drilled into everyone's heads. Punk is the same. For the one who was the best in-ring wrestler and represented change in WWE how exactly did he go against McMahonism at all? Nothing changed one time and he didn't even try to make it. Ultimately, his version of change appeared to be getting a new contract and being the champion for a long time which happened which is great for him, but how long after him did they fuck Bryan over afterwards until the fans hijacked their shows? What has he influenced directly?

    And I'll take it one step further, even in his promos which were supposedly great who ever gained from working or feuding with Punk? Who did he put over? As I got older his mic work has really lost something to me because he was ultimately like those I mentioned before, all about himself and putting himself over as the greatest which worked in many ways but in terms of money drawing feuds or elevating others it's clear he doesn't just not make the grade, he was actively a detriment to those things. What was his "Kofi" moment where he gracefully took someone nowhere near his level and turned him into a top level player through his own performances? Hell, where was his Bret/Austin moment where he put over an Ace caliber guy and made them? Even Shawn Michaels did a better job putting over Kennedy than Punk did for any midcarder and he had more than enough opportunities. He didn't get it and he'll never be a top mic worker in my book the way the Austins, Jake the Snakes, even Bryans and Samoa Joes are.

    Ultimately, this is a man who talked for years about changing the culture and said that he was the best in the world over until enough people believed it. But in terms of his career, that's all it was...talk. His actual resume is of a mediocre worker who had a breakthrough promo or 2 and enough great matches to garner a fanbase but only really cared about getting himself over and if something sucked around him, he made sure to push himself as above it all, but he made sure to never take any blame or face his own shortcomings and thus never improved and was able to be what he could have been. That is the story of CM Punk, and there's no question in my mind that there are hundreds who belong in any hall of fame before him.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    I don't agree with your post but I do think it's a reasonably fair assessment even if I do disagree to the extent of his flaws. I certainly wouldn't put him in that same category of HHH.

    Ultimately I'm a fan of stuff like the Hardy series (their Bash match and Summerslam were excellent) but that could be down to personal preference. I imagine that if we were to go through his matches, I would probably be higher on them than you, which is fine of course.

    Where my issue is is comparing him with Bryan. Bryan is one of the most complete wrestlers I've ever seen, in every facet of wrestling its a very short list of guys that can compare favourably.

    Punk has flaws, but look at other guys in our HOF. William Regal is a guy I love to bits. But he had very minimal truly great matches in his career, never drew, had one big push and he messed it up for himself. Roddy Piper is remembered fondly, but if you take a random Roddy promo or match you're as likely to get something completely dogshit as you are something great. Triple H we could discuss for years about his flaws. I do acknowledge that you might not agree with these guys in the same way as Punk.

    Ultimately there are very few guys like Austin, Bryan, Flair where there is little you can say they did badly.

    Sorry for the short ish response, I'm on my phone atm and would love to dig deeper into, but that's what stands out to me just reading your post through.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I don't agree with your post but I do think it's a reasonably fair assessment even if I do disagree to the extent of his flaws. I certainly wouldn't put him in that same category of HHH.

    Ultimately I'm a fan of stuff like the Hardy series (their Bash match and Summerslam were excellent) but that could be down to personal preference. I imagine that if we were to go through his matches, I would probably be higher on them than you, which is fine of course.

    Where my issue is is comparing him with Bryan. Bryan is one of the most complete wrestlers I've ever seen, in every facet of wrestling its a very short list of guys that can compare favourably.

    Punk has flaws, but look at other guys in our HOF. William Regal is a guy I love to bits. But he had very minimal truly great matches in his career, never drew, had one big push and he messed it up for himself. Roddy Piper is remembered fondly, but if you take a random Roddy promo or match you're as likely to get something completely dogshit as you are something great. Triple H we could discuss for years about his flaws. I do acknowledge that you might not agree with these guys in the same way as Punk.

    Ultimately there are very few guys like Austin, Bryan, Flair where there is little you can say they did badly.

    Sorry for the short ish response, I'm on my phone atm and would love to dig deeper into, but that's what stands out to me just reading your post through.

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    My comp about Bryan isn't "Bryan's better so Punk sucks", I'm saying that the stuff Punk gets credit for isn't true in reality when Bryan's the one who actually the one responsible for all that stuff and somehow Punk gets lumped in because he was in ROH and told us he did it because it was his gimmick.

    Obviously nobody agrees on everything. Maybe something like his selling I could easily buy someone not being that bothered or letting it get in the way of his matches, but it's something I feel and think at least is fair to point out. I recognize also that saying he wasn't as great on the mic is a minority opinion, but I definitely feel justified in that if he was a HOF caliber why did nobody benefit from working from him and even himself, after a year long title reign was lesser than when he started it? Whatever you say about booking because it was stale and terrible which it was, you can't just give all the blame for booking when he had that long and that many opportunities, not to mention with a huge chunk of weekly time, major input on his promos and multiple opportunities to work great workers and big stars. To bring up your Regal comp, I would never argue him being a bigger star than Punk and would also agree Punk probably has more top tier matches, but there's no question Regal made others better working with him. He was an extremely well rounded performer and although he wasn't necessarily put in position to have great matches, I would argue his actual number of great in-ring performances far far outweigh someone like Punk who had big matches, but actually good in-ring? He's pretty easy to pick apart tbh. Hell, even in random 5 minute Nitro matches Regal usually was a + performer. Can you imagine someone like Punk in Regal's spot in WCW? He would have been miserable the whole time and dragged himself down into being the worst worker ever and probably gotten beat up and hurt for trying to shoot on Lodi at some point in frustration. Piper I think is actually a much better comp and I can see where you're coming from. He definitely had his own moments of over the top self indulgence. Then again, again, he also put over others much better than Punk ever did. Punk didn't even have a Piper/Bret level moment with anyone letalone Bret/Austin. For HOF, I'm questioning the total package heavily.

    Hakuna Matata on the short response.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Punk was a big deal before Bryan in two major ways. I don't have figures to back this up, but Punk and Joe caused a massive buzz that brought people to ROH, more so than anyone before them. I remember it being the most I'd seen anyone talk about ROH online and stuff. That brings eyes to the product so people could see how great the likes of Nigel and Bryan were.

    This is all conjecture, but I think there is validity to it.

    Further, Punk was the first of that sort of mid 2000s indy dream talent to get into WWE and make it. By the time Bryan was signed into the company, Punk had won two Money in the Bank wins and three world titles. If Punk bombed, would WWE be so willing to give a guy like Bryan his money in the bank win? Impossible to say for certain , but Punk proved that someone could.

    WRT the Regal comparison, I absolutely agree. Regal was great, but he was great in different ways to Punk. Could in any universe, Regal have pulled off the match with Undertaker at Wrestlemania? Or could you give Punk ten minutes against Larry Zybzsko on a random episode of Saturday Night and get a great match?

    I get your point about Punk not putting anyone over like a Bret vs Austin, but look at the guys he had to put over - Lesnar, Undertaker, HHH, Rock. Its not so much a Punk issue as a booking issue imo.

    For a whole package, Punk fits the bill for me. As a wrestler he isn't Bryan but he's still good; as a talker he's right up there for me (I appreciate you don't like him as a talker); as a draw he's not Hogan but he was and still is very popular.

    At the risk of opening another can of worms (I'm very sorry for bringing this up) , I don't think the comparison shouldn't be the similarities between him and HHH, it should be him and Michaels. Two beloved guys from the general fandom, that were never quite top tier stars. Both good talkers, both with extreme highs but several noteworthy flaws in (and out) the ring. Like Michaels, Punk isn't a guy I've ever thought "this guy fucking sucks" like I have Triple H and Edge in the past. But he is a guy I can fully acknowledge is not perfect and can be frustrating at times. Unlike HHH, and like Michaels, I'd say Punk's positives far outweigh the negative.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Punk was a big deal before Bryan in two major ways. I don't have figures to back this up, but Punk and Joe caused a massive buzz that brought people to ROH, more so than anyone before them. I remember it being the most I'd seen anyone talk about ROH online and stuff. That brings eyes to the product so people could see how great the likes of Nigel and Bryan were.
    Something you didn't bring up, but is another reason why Punk was a bigger deal than Danielson pre-2005 is that Danielson was splitting his time between working indies and going on tours with New Japan. It wasn't until Danielson returned to ROH and won the ROH Title that he became a full timer in the company.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Interesting posts today re:Punk. To me discussing people's potential inductions are more interesting than finding out who ultimately makes the cut.

    I have never voted CM Punk for this, mainly because I try to honour generations before him unless a slam dunk falls on our laps like Bryan did when he 'retired', but also because I recognise there's some flaws there that push other wrestlers from his era ahead of him.

    I get not liking Punk as a person, he's arrogant and petty and disrespectful and ungrateful and so on. As the years have gone on, I grew to dislike him. However, this is a hall of fame that includes murderers, homophobes, racists, domestic abusers, sexists, people who have tried their best to destroy the indy scenes, and Vince McMahon, so it's a bit late to say only saints can be inducted here. My issues with the person rather than the wrestler I park at the door when I look at this.

    I think Zero's probably going too far with his criticisms in a way that made them an entertaining read, but almost impossible to agree with. Like when he he talks about him not being a great promo because he had the pipebomb and nothing else, to me it sounds like he's describing someone like The Miz who cuts an all time great promo but has a career surrounded by serviceable WWE talking segments that filled air time in the moment, but you wouldn't choose to rewatch again. I think Punk's much better than that, he's one of the few wrestlers of his time that didn't sound like they were reciting a script and what he was saying sounded believable. I also think he had more than a couple good promos in his career. No-ones mentioned it yet, but I love that promo he does when he sings happy birthday to Rey's daughter. idk man, it feels like if you think Punk's ability on the mic is too weak to considered him HOF worthy, who from the modern era is consistently better? You say for HOF you consider the total package heavily, does that mean you wouldn't back AJ Styles for HOF because he isn't the best talker (certainly not better than Punk), doesn't have many stand out promos and segments, wasn't as big of a star as Punk and had a year long run with the WWE title that was worse than Punks? Not to mention, some problematic character traits too. Hopefully everyone else will be put under the microscope as much as Punk has been in the interest of fairness.

    On his in-ring, I'm in between Zero and Shock's opinion on the matter. I don't think he's someone who should be in any best ever conversations because there were sloppy executions of moves and patches of mediocrity in his career, and his indie work was overstated, but also he's not a bad wrestler, Shock's not making a case for Kane or Bray or even Adam Cole here. In my opinion Punk is someone that had more good matches in his career than bad matches, and he's a better worker than some of the people already in our HOF. What I would say, and this is probably another reason I won't vote for him this year, I know I can fill my ballot of 5 nominees that would all be better in-ring wrestlers than Punk.

    ---

    Dave, Chris Hero released a bunch of Pro Wrestling Tees today and changed his handle to Chris Hero is back, so he ain't hanging up those boots!

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    I think Punk definitely doesn't live up to his "Best In The World" moniker. Most don't, Punk being no exception. But he's far from being terrible as a promo or when wrestling. He can be sloppy and uncoordinated at times but I never feel like it's a detriment to his matches. There are far more "smoother" wrestlers that fit that bill than Punk. I never get taken out of his matches because of it. He usually delivers at the other aspects of the match at hand. As far as his promos, I think they are more intresting than most. He has his memerable ones (all of which Ed mentioned).

    Anyway, Punk definitely has a case of being a HOF. It's been over six years by this point and he is still a big talking point for the current fandom. He's clearly had a big impact on the wrestling buisness. He has many accomplishments that most wrestlers would be evny of, ranging from high profile matches at Wrestlemanias, main event runs with the biggest stars of the time (Rock, Cena), a long title reign (despite it being mostly wasted due to lacklustre booking and not going all in on Punk as the top guy). His indie run is fondly remembered. It may not hold up for some people, but his feuds with Samoa Joe, Jimmy Rave and Raven stand out in that era for ROH fanatics and people that only watched bits and pieces. Punk has had a long career with multiple great matches, feuds and a legacy that'll stick in the minds of many.

    There are some people that probably should be considered over him but I wouldn't begrudge anyone for prioritising him over anyone else.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by EdI
    think Zero's probably going too far with his criticisms in a way that made them an entertaining read, but almost impossible to agree with.
    The first post yes. The second longer one was much more truthful and fair, plus a shot at him losing to Lodi which I'd hope everyone could appreciate on some level.

    Like when he he talks about him not being a great promo because he had the pipebomb and nothing else, to me it sounds like he's describing someone like The Miz who cuts an all time great promo but has a career surrounded by serviceable WWE talking segments that filled air time in the moment, but you wouldn't choose to rewatch again. I think Punk's much better than that, he's one of the few wrestlers of his time that didn't sound like they were reciting a script and what he was saying sounded believable. I also think he had more than a couple good promos in his career. No-ones mentioned it yet, but I love that promo he does when he sings happy birthday to Rey's daughter. idk man, it feels like if you think Punk's ability on the mic is too weak to considered him HOF worthy, who from the modern era is consistently better?
    He had plenty of great ones. That Rey promo was great, his Rock box with god one was great, he had some really strong ones in the Cena feud. Even against Hardy as I said he did great character work. But ultimately his problem wasn't his "ability" but his style itself and mindset led to him ultimately led to his promos being extremely self serving and quite frankly super lame in my opinion which is why I compared him to Trips. I reiterate my earlier point in that who really was elevated working a feud with Punk? Or even with him? Both the SES & New Nexus members gained absolutely nothing. Granted the talent wasn't strong itself but for someone with his alleged star power and mic ability he never once brought them up to any kind of next level. In terms of feuds he had tons of chances and ultimately his own content was just that, his own content. To me the top mic workers are those who bring the best out of others and build compelling feuds that build both parties up. I don't put him in that class at all, even against Bryan it goes to show Bryan was better off and much more over AFTER Punk was out of the way rather than when he was feuding with him for months on end. Now I'm not discounting booking issues at all. It sucked for all kinds of people and everyone knows this. But what of Punk, who is claimed as one of the greatest of the era, when others have done more in their feuds than he ever did?

    You say for HOF you consider the total package heavily, does that mean you wouldn't back AJ Styles for HOF because he isn't the best talker (certainly not better than Punk), doesn't have many stand out promos and segments, wasn't as big of a star as Punk and had a year long run with the WWE title that was worse than Punks? Not to mention, some problematic character traits too. Hopefully everyone else will be put under the microscope as much as Punk has been in the interest of fairness.
    Punk is better on the mic than AJ, I would agree with that. And yet AJ is a much better candidate for multiple reasons:

    1. Is a much better work not only in terms of in-ring execution, but peak, consistency, and longevity all clearly fall on AJ's side.
    2. AJ's much more influential than Punk and his style has resonated throughout the business on a global scale and in both major and minor ways.
    3. I disagree with Punk being a bigger star in wrestling, at least in a positive way. Maybe because of his UFC run he might be more known but in a positive sense? I definitely consider, and think a vast majority of those in wrestling and even fans in this era do and always will consider AJ much more of a legend than Punk.
    4. AJ has elevated others multiple times whether in feuds or having their best match, from TNA to NJPW to WWE. I keep asking for examples where Punk did this (and not even just wins and losses of Punk losing to a new guy, but just made him look good. For example in The Shield feud he didn't give a fuck, made them look like shit, then buried Roman for no reason and turned his cult-like fanbase on him for like 5 years) and nobody seems to have very strong, HOF-caliber answers. Or any answers at all for that matter. Because it never happened.
    5. I don't care about personal life. Even someone like Omega I have no problem praising when he does good and I've got the receipts to be bitter at him. Still though, I do think AJ's stuff is largely overblown. When it comes time for business, AJ's done good by everyone, while Punk nearly bankrupted his own best friend because of stuff HE did. Still though, even if Punk shot someone in cold blood, claimed he hated all gay people in the world, pissed on the American flag and announced himself as the new Hitler all while wearing a MAGA hat and a girl scout's outfit it's really not relevant to his HOF case other than for amusement purposes. What does is his shitty personality ultimately affected his performances at different periods.

    On his in-ring, I'm in between Zero and Shock's opinion on the matter. I don't think he's someone who should be in any best ever conversations because there were sloppy executions of moves and patches of mediocrity in his career, and his indie work was overstated, but also he's not a bad wrestler, Shock's not making a case for Kane or Bray or even Adam Cole here. In my opinion Punk is someone that had more good matches in his career than bad matches, and he's a better worker than some of the people already in our HOF. What I would say, and this is probably another reason I won't vote for him this year, I know I can fill my ballot of 5 nominees that would all be better in-ring wrestlers than Punk.
    I have to admit the most damning point to my argument is the fact someone like Warrior and Triple H is in the HOF, whereas Punk, for any flaws he may have clearly got it more than they did. More good than bad? As I said to me he's a big match worker and you can point to 5-10 matches where he finally put it together and was motivated enough to rock shit and they almost all are hugely important matches to his career. But how many shitty Chris Jericho matches took place during his era where he looked like he was toast already? What Rey matches were truly memorable? Was he truly a good tv worker the level of someone like never mind the Benoit rule or whatever, even guys like Regal, Christian, and Matt Hardy who aren't HOFers? I don't think he was at all. We agree his indie work wasn't that great. So really, is he a HOF worker? I think there's no way you can claim that. If he would have gotten it together and not been so up his own ass I think he could have been great, but as I said he never fixed his own flaws or cared to knock out what he didn't do well.

    I think Shock's point about comparing Punk to HBK is extremely fair. I think Punk is similar to HHH on the mic and similar but different to HBK in ring, as I think HBK often also stretched himself beyond his abilities in-ring. The difference is that HBK's flaws were emotional and his version of "storytelling" which as we see him impart on the next generation...totally sucks. Punk on the other hand stretched himself physically, doing moves he was never capable of and both men's egos going too far and dragging two should be awesome wrestlers to the point of no return, and their reputations harmed more and more as time goes on from being told every week they're the greatest wrestlers that it stuck.

    That said, even comparing him to people like Miz and Bray is ridiculous. To simplify it, Miz and Brays are like 2s and 1s on a 1-10 scale. Punk is a 4-6 that should have been an 8-10 and his fans claim he is anyway.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    .

    ---

    Dave, Chris Hero released a bunch of Pro Wrestling Tees today and changed his handle to Chris Hero is back, so he ain't hanging up those boots!
    Suspected this might be the case, so no complaints from me! Thought it would be an interesting discussion though, even if it morphed into the pros & cons of CM Punk instead

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    I do wonder where we will stand when more independent guys start retiring. Hero is an interesting discussion as he's one of the best wrestlers of his generation. What about when guys like Sami, Cesaro and Aries start retiring? Nigel hasn't been mentioned since his retirement so I don't know how much traction these guys will get.

    Not that I'm necessarily advocating any of them, but they're all generational talents in the ring despite modest-at-best careers.

    We're definitely some way off that when Kawada, Hansen, Tenryu, etc are still sat on the sidelines but I think it's a fascinating discussion to have.

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    Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Ongoing Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I do wonder where we will stand when more independent guys start retiring. Hero is an interesting discussion as he's one of the best wrestlers of his generation. What about when guys like Sami, Cesaro and Aries start retiring? Nigel hasn't been mentioned since his retirement so I don't know how much traction these guys will get.

    Not that I'm necessarily advocating any of them, but they're all generational talents in the ring despite modest-at-best careers.

    We're definitely some way off that when Kawada, Hansen, Tenryu, etc are still sat on the sidelines but I think it's a fascinating discussion to have.

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    It's a generational thing to me. The big indy guys of the early 2000's coincide with when I started watching regularly. I'm aware of the legends before, but I won't have that emotional connection to them like the older posters here will.

    It's taken a lot of time for the Japanese talents to get in as it is, so if they aren't in by the time the current crop like Liger, Tanahashi etc. start hanging it up, it's likely they'll struggle even more.

    Nigel is another interesting name for sure. What hurts him most is not just the lack of mainstream run, but his shorter run in general. He only gained some degree of notoriety from 2004/5 onwards and was practically done by 2011.

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