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Thread: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

  1. #41
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    The Second City Saints had been faces since Punk turned face at Reborn Completion back in mid 2004. I imagine they were mostly turned face because ROH had just put together The Rottweilers, Generation Next, and The Embassy, so they really needed to make some faces to combat these new heels.
    I see. The commentary had made it seem like this face turn was more recent.

    And yeah, whether you consider Shelley a great worker or just a good one (the consensus here leaning towards the latter), I wouldn’t be using this match to sell him to anyone.

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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    I hate you all.

    This match is great. Shelley is also really great. I see what you are guys talking about. Hes and awesome chain wretsler, he sells well and hes an awesome tag team wrestler.

    Heres some awesome singles matches in ROH

    Shelley vs Jacobs - Joe vs Punk 2
    Shelley vs Williams - DBD part 2
    Shelley vs Danielson - GBH 2004
    Shelley vs Punk - 3rd anny show
    Shelley vs Evans - 3rd anny show
    Shelley vs Aries - MM
    Shelley vs Strong - Final Showdown
    SHelley vs Castganoli - This Means War
    Shelley vs Danielson - Arena Warfare 2006

    SHelley vs Gresham - glory by Honor 2019
    Shelley vs Gresham - Final Battle fallout 2019
    SHelley vs Haskins - Free Enterprise 2020
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  3. #43
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    The point wasn't that Shelley wasn't good or didn't have some really good singles matches, because he was and he did. The point was more about his ceiling. How many of those matches are really, really great? Like even minor MOTYC level great? I'd struggle. I think most would agree the Aries match from MM is his best singles match and that may not have even been the best match on that show.

    You also have to remember how much talent there was on the indy scene during the mid-2000s. Was Shelley ever a top 5 guy on the ROH roster? No. He was MAYBE top 10, at best.

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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    The point wasn't that Shelley wasn't good or didn't have some really good singles matches, because he was and he did. The point was more about his ceiling. How many of those matches are really, really great? Like even minor MOTYC level great? I'd struggle. I think most would agree the Aries match from MM is his best singles match and that may not have even been the best match on that show.

    You also have to remember how much talent there was on the indy scene during the mid-2000s. Was Shelley ever a top 5 guy on the ROH roster? No. He was MAYBE top 10, at best.
    I can agree with him not being the top 5. I would never think he on the same level of Danielson or Joe or Strong. Hes a great upper midcarder.

    And id say he vs Aries at MM is best match on that show. Thast the match i show people who have never seen ROH before. I must have seen it over 10 times now.

    His match vs Jacobs at Punk vs Joe 2 is awesome as fuck. Severly under rated. And it was a hardcore match.

    Either way i thought Marketh would like it...oh well. i have more ROH matches up my sleeve!!!!!
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan View Post
    I hate you all.

    This match is great. Shelley is also really great.
    Why though? What does he do in this particular match that's an example of that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakstang
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  6. #46
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    NOTE: In this review, I spoil discuss some very good nearfalls that had me worked because I've not seen this since it happened. Unless you've watched this recently, I'd recommend watching this in another tab first and without checking the time throughout for peak enjoyment.


    Driven 2008
    ROH World Tag Team Championship
    Tyler Black & Jimmy Jacobs vs. Kevin Steen & El Generico




    ROH has pretty much always held their tag titles in high regard. At times, they've claimed the tag titles were equal to the world title, which is bollocks, but they certainly did often present the tag division as a main event attraction over the years. It would've been difficult anyway to give the tag belts the same prestige as a championship that was never held twice by anyone from 2002 to 2009 or vacated until 2013. But this title change quite possibly has as much, perhaps more, emotional impact than any of the world title ones.

    Steenerico's title chase had begun as soon as they started teaming and feuding with The Briscoes. They lost that legendary feud and, naturally, Steen gradually started turning face due to growing popularity following it, so the team were fully-fledged babyfaces now without changing much at all in their characters. Of course, replacing them as The Briscoes' contenders were Jacobs & Black from Age of the Fall, who debuted in one of ROH's most memorable segments by hanging Jay Briscoe upside-down from the ceiling and letting him bleed all over Jacobs' white jacket - he even drank some of the blood in an unplanned spot. Interesting how that might fly today. The last time these teams faced off was in the finals of a one-night title tournament which saw AOTF coast through to the finals with jobber opponents and a DQ victory. Meanwhile, Steenerico were attacked by Nigel McGuinness & Go Shiozaki after defeating them, then again after beating Chris Hero & Adam Pearce. So Steen's knee and Generico's arm are fucked, they're exhausted, but with fans begging for the underdogs to overcome it seems like the perfect scenario for Steenerico to finally capture the belts - but AOTF scored a rollup with the tights to steal it. This was on the borderline of a great work versus cockteasing and dragging out a title chase. The live crowd were throwing rubbish at the ring and I remember being pissed at the booking here. AOTF don't necessarily need the belts - Jacobs has a blood feud with Austin Aries and Black is being groomed by Gabe Sapolsky as the Next Big Thing. Literally. Gabe would reveal in a shoot that every show he booked in 2008 began with the question: "How will this get Tyler Black over?" So I think a Steenerico win in this tournament was still going to be this big, joyous moment, but clearly ROH wanted to add more fuel to the fire to keep this going until the next PPV.

    Notable spot at the beginning where Steen tells Generico to put his boot on the turnbuckle so he can ram Black's head into it and, for I think the first time ever, Generico understands the command and does it! Not sure the crowd picked up on it, but I thought it worked as a nice little moment to show Steenerico being at the top of their game and less of the Odd Couple they've always been. They're also successful at dominating the early goings and double-teaming Jacobs. It's pretty standard fare from both teams for the first half. I won't go as far as saying they were killing time just waiting to get into the hot tag, it just felt like a standard tag match. But it's a good crowd and Steen is good at rallying them from his corner and getting the "Ole!" chants going loudly while Generico mounts a comeback. Steen comes in to clean house with a senton dive to the outside and now we're cooking - fans on their feet already.

    Spoiler:

    Good spot with Jacobs locking Steen in the End Time, broken by Generico popping out from the side of the frame with a Yakuza Kick, letting Steen get a rollup from it. Nice editing choice to use that angle. Incredible nearfall gets an incredible, loud mixed reaction of disbelief, boos and cheers when Steenerico nail a brilliantly executed series of moves. How well done was this nearfall? I began to doubt my memory of the match and thought it was already over this early. "How will this get Tyler Black over?" - by him kicking out of this big combo without Jacobs' help.

    Incredible nearfall #2. How well done was this nearfall? I began to doubt my memory AGAIN and thought this was over. Steen gets a Sharpshooter on Black and Generico clotheslines Jacobs out, then dives to the outside, doing everything he can to keep him away. Black is selling the fuck out of this submission with his screaming and expressions and the crowd is going mental. I thought it was over when he got pulled back into the middle of the ring. The drama and urgency is so good here.

    Almost like a mirror of that End Time/Yakuza Kick spot earlier, Generico goes for the kick but Jacobs comes flying from out of frame from the other side this time to counter into an End Time. I have no clue if any of this is intentional, but check out both spots and let me know if you get the comparison. It works really well either way.

    Miscommunication in AOTF gives an opening for Generico to hit a Yakuza Kick to both in the corner, followed by the Package Piledriver/Brainbuster combo for the fucking win and the arena EXPLODES!


    This is possibly one of the best, most sustained pops in ROH history, especially if you include the cheering shifting into singing "Ole!" The emotion is off the charts, I was feeling it as strong right now as I probably did at the time. How can you not love this? The reaction of Steen especially. He is so happy to have finally won these belts. And the moment they look at each other and their belts before going in for the hug - priceless. An Odd Couple team that started off as this sort of bully/geek duo, with a common goal of winning gold in ROH, and have come so close many times in the last year - finally achieving it and for the first time (I think) finally embracing as actual friends. This was a wonderfully told story. The drama and excitement of the last 9 minutes of this match is 5* stuff. This is exactly what you want in the climax of a longterm angle: a fully invested crowd, a rollercoaster of a finishing stretch, great performances by all involved (not that AOTF needed to be much than able to keep up the workrate and be foils for Steenerico, but Black contributed especially during the Sharpshooter spot) and a powerful celebration after the bell. It truly felt like an earned payoff for a long journey and, after revisiting, still remains one of my favourite wrestling moments ever.
    Last edited by Marketh; 04-07-2020 at 10:48 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakstang
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  7. #47
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Quote Originally Posted by Marketh View Post
    Why though? What does he do in this particular match that's an example of that?


    Its been a while since i watched it. Everything just clicked. That's all it takes for me to like matches though. If the flow is good( and i remember it was) And the moves make me pop.
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    That is a brilliant title win. Steenerico is one of my favourite tag teams from this time period, and I liked how they won the title without dragging it out too long (like ROH have done with guys like Tyler Black).

    The ROH tag titles were so well treated at this time.

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  9. #49
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    They had the Briscoes/Steenerico match from Driven on ROH TV last week, and it reminded me how much I loved that early Steenerico dynamic of a face & heel willingly working together.

    Will do my best to give this a shot this week

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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Quote Originally Posted by Postman Dave View Post
    They had the Briscoes/Steenerico match from Driven on ROH TV last week, and it reminded me how much I loved that early Steenerico dynamic of a face & heel willingly working together.

    Will do my best to give this a shot this week

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    is that the one with the sick SSP/ Top turnbuckle Legdrop combo by the the Briscoes?


    ROH has put up a lot matches on youtube since they went on hiatus. They also added about 1/3 of 2010 shows on honor club.


    i wonder if Marketh will review the Dragon Gate Six man from SCOH 2006
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan View Post
    is that the one with the sick SSP/ Top turnbuckle Legdrop combo by the the Briscoes?

    ROH has put up a lot matches on youtube since they went on hiatus. They also added about 1/3 of 2010 shows on honor club.
    I don't recall that spot I'm afraid, so possibly not.

    Credit where credit is due, since Marty took charge ROH have made a massive improvement in utilising thier back catalogue.



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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Wow this one held up better than I thought it would. Most of the match is worked as heel tag structure and Jacobs was great. He was really directing traffic through the match. End run was massive and fucking great. And what a moment the title win is, one of the best payoffs ROH ever had. It'd be interesting to see the Briscoes 2/3 Falls match again because right now this feels like it might be the best Steenerico tag match.

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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Quote Originally Posted by Postman Dave View Post
    I don't recall that spot I'm afraid, so possibly not.

    Credit where credit is due, since Marty took charge ROH have made a massive improvement in utilising thier back catalogue.



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    It must of been one of their others matches as it was the finish and it really stood out
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    That is a brilliant title win. Steenerico is one of my favourite tag teams from this time period, and I liked how they won the title without dragging it out too long (like ROH have done with guys like Tyler Black).
    As I mentioned, it felt they were close to doing that after losing in the tournament finals. This match was probably the last opportunity they had to do this or Steenerico would've lost a ton of momentum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Postman Dave
    They had the Briscoes/Steenerico match from Driven on ROH TV last week, and it reminded me how much I loved that early Steenerico dynamic of a face & heel willingly working together.
    Sorta. As I recall, it was like a bully dragging along a nerd to help him because Generico wanted a championship as much as Steen. There was even the post-match of Manhattan Mayhem II where Steen was grabbing Generico and yelling at him to attack The Briscoes against his will. Then obviously after that feud, they gradually grew closer to becoming actual friends, culminating in this match.

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan
    is that the one with the sick SSP/ Top turnbuckle Legdrop combo by the the Briscoes?
    That was the first Briscoes/Steenerico tag in early 2007.

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan
    i wonder if Marketh will review the Dragon Gate Six man from SCOH 2006
    Yes, but I think I've done two 2006 matches already so I want to revisit other years first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakstang
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  15. #55
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    Re: ROH Revisited: A Totally Non-Corona Related Marketh Reviews Comeback

    Honor Takes Center Stage: Night 2
    The Briscoes vs. All-Night Express



    This is a match that deserved more attention at the time and was one of my favourites from 2011. A match that I never expected going in to be as good as it turned out. All-Night Express began as a somewhat random pairing of two lowcarders being mentored by Austin Aries during his "A-Double" phase. Both charismatic, Kenny King shows signs of promise but never really proves to be much more than carryable when with good workers, and Rhett Titus' "Addicted to Love" gimmick is losing some steam, but I find that his improving ring work is going unacknowledged by most fans. Around this time, they've managed to really start gelling as a team and hold their own in matches with the likes of Kings Of Wrestling and Future Shock. With Aries no longer around for them to get heat as his stooges, they've also started gaining some popularity. Meanwhile, The Briscoes are coming off a feud with KOW, which was a good feud but unnecessarily dragged out to a year, so fans are tired of The Briscoes' act. These circumstances led to a well-timed, successful double-turn, with ANX upsetting The Briscoes at Manhattan Mayhem IV and The Briscoes attacking afterwards.

    A lot of good heat for that angle and the promos afterward instantly reinvigorated The Briscoes as characters - Jay stronger than ever on the mic and Mark almost stealing the attention with his crazy behaviour in the background. Some of their most memorable promos came during this heel run. But ANX still need to prove they can be credible and worthy of being in a Steenerico or KOW level feud with The Briscoes.

    The Briscoes jump ANX before the bell, continuing the heat from their last match, as both teams brawl around ringside. The far more experienced brawlers are able to beat up the pretty-boys, but once ANX make something of a comeback the referees split them up and a proper tag match starts. The good thing is that the double-turn is still working for a new crowd - "Fuck The Briscoes!" and "ANX!" chants. It's always fun seeing The Briscoes as aggressive as this, they don't really slow down at all or even use their double-teams. They just beat up Rhett Titus and bloody him early on against the ring post. Surely the first time Titus would have bladed. They beat the shit out of Titus, while the crowd chants "You Fuck Chickens!" It's a simple, effective way to get ANX over by taking this beating and Titus does well at selling it.

    King's hot tag is coming in with the flashy, crowd-pleasing moves, which works and is over, but I'm kinda hoping for more of a brawling comeback as return for how Titus got beat up. It's little things like this throughout the rest of the feud that I'd use for arguing Titus had a better grasp of storytelling than King, who was the moves guy with a little bit of charisma. The match turns up a notch when unexpectedly, Titus comes out of nowhere with a X-Factor to Jay through a ringside table. Uncharacteristic spot for Titus, the chickenshit heel until recently, and it gets a good pop. Also just the fact he's done it to Jay feels like a big deal. Titus keeps selling the earlier beatdown and blood loss while attacking Mark and eventually Jay suddenly returns by turning King inside-out with a Lariat and reveals he's been bloodied with a Muta Scale level cut. We don't get a good angle, but I remember this well, Jay spits blood in the air and it literally looks like a Red Mist. Nobody was expecting this from a midcard tag.

    Titus and Jay, both crimson and Jay dripping, get into a staredown as the crowd loses its shit for an epic, dramatic visual. In possibly my favourite sequence from this year, they go back and forth with punches, Titus gains momentum until Jay SPITS BLOOD in Titus' eyes. He gets sent stumbling through the ropes, but bounces back with a wicked clothesline, sending blood flying! Titus looks like a star in this sequence, I love it. ANX get a nearfall with their Powerbomb/Blockbuster combo, but we've already seen the peak of the match. Jay is able to put away King with the Jay-Driller. Annoyingly, the video cuts off instantly but what happens after is we get a lot of looks at how insane Jay is bleeding as he works the crowd. He spits a Red Mist in the air again, talking shit and flipping everyone off. They were getting great heat for this match and I'm sure ANX probably got a standing ovation too. To me, Titus getting beat up by The Briscoes and fighting back was why this feud worked. I never felt King contributed as much so it always annoyed me to not see any love for what Titus was doing, because he was still seen as a former ROH student and a mediocre worker, but he had improved to become fairly solid. Whereas King was more athletic and had some cool moves, therefore he was always seen as a guy with potential, even though he could be sloppy and didn't live up to that potential when the opportunities came.

    But this is a match I'm especially curious how you all take to it. I think I actually find it stronger as a whole now than I did at the time. I expected it was going to be them killing time and having a basic tag until the table spot, but turns out they were already putting on a pretty good fight with some heat before that point. I think that Titus/Jay sequence is a classic ROH moment that deserves to be remembered more.

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