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Thread: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

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    Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    So to keep the backstory simple, I'm working on a wrestling mod for the game Total Extreme Wrestling. Its real world mod that starts in May of 2013. You can read about it here. Basically, I'm focusing less on the minutiae of the individual wrestlers skills and more on how they fit into the game world. The issue is that there are some regions of the world where my knowledge is limited. Where haven't watched much, and many of the opinions I hold are based heavily on the opinions of others (not necessarily a bad thing). These include Mexico, joshi, Europe, some of the BritWres scene, the Japanese indy scene, and the lower level American/Canadian indy scene.

    I have the forums Best Workers of the Late 2010s Project very helpful in getting some info and opinions. So I figured I would go a step further and ask. I asked in the Mod thread but figured a standalone thread here would get more eyes and therefore more replies.

    Been mulling how to ask for the information. I don't want to be restrictively specific nor too open to the point of lacking context. I will try to ask them in a way that slides in between those. When I'm asking for "lists" of workers, they don't have to be ordered. They don't have to be justified with explanations. That's lovely and helpful, especially if its a more obscure worker, but not required. And please do not feel like you can only offer up opinions if you have "expert level" knowledge. That is not the intent at all. And although the time frame of the mod is mid-2013, more contemporary knowledge sharing is fine too. That fits in just fine.

    Last, I'm not against unsolicited opinions (unless its indyfan bigging up ROH and ROH talent). Throw it in here or the mod thread

    The Topics So Far
    1. Luchadors - Who are your top 10-20 in-ring talents in Mexico in the 2013 and on period?
    2. European Scene - Who are some European talents I should know about?
    3. Japanese Juniors - Who are some of the best junior workers in Japan? Who is overlooked and underrated?
    Last edited by Big Papa; 09-05-2019 at 09:48 AM.
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Random Opinions Help Request #1 - Luchadors

    Who are your top 10-20 in-ring talents in Mexico in the 2013 and on period?

    I've seen a fair amount of most of those who have succeeded more widely. Pentagon Jr, Mistico, Dragon Lee I & II, Bandido. Flamita, Fenix, Rush, Hechicero, Cavenario... can still include them, but I know them already and most are in the data. I have seen a decent amount of. I've watched some Lucha Underground (and will watch more), but see very little of CMLL or AAA, let alone DTU and the like. Doesn't have to be an ordered list. Doesn't require an any explanation, although blurbs about how / why they are good certainly helps and is appreciated.
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    You kinda named most of them there, but I'd go with (in no specific order):

    Top tier:
    - Rush
    - Virus
    - Negro Casas - less so in recent years due to age and not working as frequently, but was still really good from 2013 for the couple years after
    - Black Terry - see above
    - Hechicero
    - Barbaro Cavernario
    - Dragon Lee
    - LA PARK

    Second tier:
    - Fenix
    - Rey Escorpion
    - Cachorro - not sure he's done much in recent years?
    - Titan
    - Guerrero Mayo Jr.
    - Mil Muertes (Second tier only because I'm not he actually wrestles much outside LU?)
    - Ultimo Guerrero

    Zero or someone may be able to throw up a couple I've forgotten/not aware of?

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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    The big names that I would've said are already mentioned. I guess guys like Aramis, who have been getting notoriety lately, should be mentioned too. Had tons of matches last year against Hechicero and Negro Casas,

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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    As it starts in 2013, don't you need to include La Sombra as he didn't sign to WWE until 2015?

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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    As it starts in 2013, don't you need to include La Sombra as he didn't sign to WWE until 2015?
    Yup.

    Pretty sure Blue Panther was also in the pile of old guys who still kicked ass up until the past couple years.

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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    You kinda named most of them there, but I'd go with (in no specific order):

    Top tier:
    - Rush
    - Virus
    - Negro Casas - less so in recent years due to age and not working as frequently, but was still really good from 2013 for the couple years after
    - Black Terry - see above
    - Hechicero
    - Barbaro Cavernario
    - Dragon Lee
    - LA PARK

    Second tier:
    - Fenix
    - Rey Escorpion
    - Cachorro - not sure he's done much in recent years?
    - Titan
    - Guerrero Mayo Jr.
    - Mil Muertes (Second tier only because I'm not he actually wrestles much outside LU?)
    - Ultimo Guerrero

    Zero or someone may be able to throw up a couple I've forgotten/not aware of?
    That is absolutely perfect. Thank you, good sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    The big names that I would've said are already mentioned. I guess guys like Aramis, who have been getting notoriety lately, should be mentioned too. Had tons of matches last year against Hechicero and Negro Casas,
    Aramis is someone I don't know, so that helps a ton.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    As it starts in 2013, don't you need to include La Sombra as he didn't sign to WWE until 2015?
    Oh, he is definitely included and will be pretty top shelf. He'll probably end up being very close to the top tier in terms of in-ring talent.... which might be a bit high for La Sombra at the time (maybe????) but given how good he's been in the WWE....
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Mesias is a weird one because as Muertes he was great but he sucks in CMLL as Mesias. Cachorro is Black Panther now and is pretty solid, but hardly an elite talent. Seemed to have way more upside when he was just starting and hasn't had chances to break out.

    I will give my favorites here:

    AAA:
    Hijo del Vikingo - One of the best high fliers in many many years, he is the Luchador with the most upside to me of any company.

    Averno - Great mic worker and technical wrestler, but more used for entertainment as the OGTs leader than actually being able to wrestle as good as he could. His stablemates Chessman and Super Fly are ok but he's by far the best one.

    Aero Star - You probably saw him on LU but he's one of the most reliable talents in AAA.

    Dragon Bane - only 18 years old and another prospect with huge upside. Great young high flier and could be special.

    Arkangel Divino - same as Bane but a bit older.

    -

    CMLL:
    The Chavez Brothers, Angel de Oro and Niebla Roja are two of the MVPs for CMLL this past 2 years. Both very charismatic and great looks and can be top tier when necessary though Roha is a better and more consistent overall in-ring performer, at times Oro can be lazy in random Trios tags.

    Soberano Jr. is up and down but has had some really impressive and high highs. Think he's still a couple of years away from putting it all together but is worth mentioning.

    Rey Cometa - somewhat Similar to Guerrero Maya Jr. but both are highly underrated. Him moreso as a flier and Maya more technical.

    Carístico deserves mention as one of the most consistent main eventers and despite losing nearly all his major matches did one of the best numbers drawing against Penta last year. Very good wrestler and often has to hold matches together compared to Ingobernables matches that suck.

    Nuevas Generación Dinamitas - Sansón, Cuatrero, and Forastero. The best Trio in Mexico. Sansón & Cuatrero are brothers and Forastero is their cousin. If I were to do a Madden-esque rating scale Cuatrero would be an 88 in-ring and a 60 in charisma. Sansón would be an 80 in-ring and 80 in charisma. Forastero would be a 75 in both.

    Indies:
    Anyone who gets to work in the AAA openers are special but I also think Aero Boy is a top tier talent. Flamita and Draztick Boy have both worked in Japan but I wouldn't consider them top tier talents, but good high fliers.


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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Mesias is a weird one because as Muertes he was great but he sucks in CMLL as Mesias. Cachorro is Black Panther now and is pretty solid, but hardly an elite talent. Seemed to have way more upside when he was just starting and hasn't had chances to break out.

    I will give my favorites here:

    AAA:
    Hijo del Vikingo - One of the best high fliers in many many years, he is the Luchador with the most upside to me of any company.

    Averno - Great mic worker and technical wrestler, but more used for entertainment as the OGTs leader than actually being able to wrestle as good as he could. His stablemates Chessman and Super Fly are ok but he's by far the best one.

    Aero Star - You probably saw him on LU but he's one of the most reliable talents in AAA.

    Dragon Bane - only 18 years old and another prospect with huge upside. Great young high flier and could be special.

    Arkangel Divino - same as Bane but a bit older.

    -

    CMLL:
    The Chavez Brothers, Angel de Oro and Niebla Roja are two of the MVPs for CMLL this past 2 years. Both very charismatic and great looks and can be top tier when necessary though Roha is a better and more consistent overall in-ring performer, at times Oro can be lazy in random Trios tags.

    Soberano Jr. is up and down but has had some really impressive and high highs. Think he's still a couple of years away from putting it all together but is worth mentioning.

    Rey Cometa - somewhat Similar to Guerrero Maya Jr. but both are highly underrated. Him moreso as a flier and Maya more technical.

    Carístico deserves mention as one of the most consistent main eventers and despite losing nearly all his major matches did one of the best numbers drawing against Penta last year. Very good wrestler and often has to hold matches together compared to Ingobernables matches that suck.

    Nuevas Generación Dinamitas - Sansón, Cuatrero, and Forastero. The best Trio in Mexico. Sansón & Cuatrero are brothers and Forastero is their cousin. If I were to do a Madden-esque rating scale Cuatrero would be an 88 in-ring and a 60 in charisma. Sansón would be an 80 in-ring and 80 in charisma. Forastero would be a 75 in both.

    Indies:
    Anyone who gets to work in the AAA openers are special but I also think Aero Boy is a top tier talent. Flamita and Draztick Boy have both worked in Japan but I wouldn't consider them top tier talents, but good high fliers.
    Whoa, that's a lot of super-helpful info, Zero. Thanks.

    Cachorro / Black Panther brings up an interesting point in these kind of projects. When we are looking back, its really easy - and somewhat necessary - to look at how talent turned out, but its easy to lost perspective on how they were regarded at the time. When someone is viewed to have potential and they never quite live up to that, it doesn't mean it didn't exist - well, sometimes it does and sometimes there are factors that kept them from achieving to that level. Creates some interesting conundrums.
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Random Opinions Help Request #2 - European Scene


    Who are your some of the best workers on the European Scene that people don't talk about much?

    Okay, this is kinda vague as fuck, but I want to leave it fairly open. I feel like I have a decent handle on the BritWres scene as a whole (watched through Progress in sequence up to late 2017 and have watched NXT UK). I have only watched a bit of wXw, but I know about most of the names that have gone bigger - WALTER, Dragunov, Starr, Tischer, Thatcher, Dieter, Tommy End.... But I don't feel like I strong handle on the wXw regulars as a whole, and I definitely don't know enough about the scene beyond the one company. I have seen A-Kid against ZSJ.

    So who are the "top" or very good workers on the European (non BritWres) scene that I should know about? Again, I am looking for 2013 and forward.
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Oh boy...uh... I can give you some names, that were always around in the German Wrestling scene and those are, as far as I know, pretty well received workers. I dunno, if you can find much viewable material on them though.

    Blue Nikita and Wesna are probably two of the most respected female competitors the German independent scene had. Then there are the likes of Ahmed Chaer, Ares, Crazy Sexy Mike, Absolute Andy and of course Steve Douglas, Thumbtack Jack and Bad Bones. Also I always heard only good stuff about italian Wrestler Kaio.

    Maybe this isn't too helpful, but maybe it's at least a start. You can check out the sites Wrestlingdata or Cagematch. Both are german sites (and available in english), so their database consists of many German/Middle European shows. Just browse and look, if you see some names popping up multiple times. Or check out their wrestler lists. I always did, when I put european-based BTBs together back in the day on some other boards.
    Last edited by Baloocha; 08-27-2019 at 11:02 AM.

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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloocha View Post
    Oh boy...uh... I can give you some names, that were always around in the German Wrestling scene and those are, as far as I know, pretty well received workers. I dunno, if you can find much viewable material on them though.

    Blue Nikita and Wesna are probably two of the most respected female competitors the German independent scene had. Then there are the likes of Ahmed Chaer, Ares, Crazy Sexy Mike, Absolute Andy and of course Steve Douglas, Thumbtack Jack and Bad Bones. Also I always heard only good stuff about italian Wrestler Kaio.

    Maybe this isn't too helpful, but maybe it's at least a start. You can check out the sites Wrestlingdata or Cagematch. Both are german sites (and available in english), so their database consists of many German/Middle European shows. Just browse and look, if you see some names popping up multiple times. Or check out their wrestler lists. I always did, when I put european-based BTBs together back in the day on some other boards.
    Cagematch is my BIBLE when it comes to mods, so that would be an amazing recommendation if I didn't already use it. It doesn't have absolutely every company, but its a huge resource that I use endlessly. filling in a roster for a company would be really hard without it, let alone a workers employment history. Wrestlingdata seems to miss more info and just isn't as easy to move around as a site. The drawback of both that they don't really give you enough to know what kind of worker they were. Match ratings can be a guide, but only so much.

    I know most of those names. I know Ares was Claudio's tag partner back in the day, and Absolute Andy is still with wXw. Bad Bones too - works as John Klinger know. I know OF them, but I don't know their work much. There is a marginal amount of wXw matches on Youtube. I've been tempted to subscribe to their service but just haven't yet. Might be worth it to be able to check out more of these workers, especially some older matches.

    Thanks, Lucha. I figured you would have some good info.

    Fun fact - Cagematch is owned by Strigga, who does the Eastern Lariat podcast with Zero.
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    From that time period, Rampage Brown feels like someone who was doing pretty well for himself in the UK. London Riots were also one of the top tag teams.

    Also, Kris Travis poses a conundrum for you, widely regarded as someone that would of burst out as a top guy at some point during the UK boom if not for his stomach cancer diagnosis in 2014.

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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    From that time period, Rampage Brown feels like someone who was doing pretty well for himself in the UK. London Riots were also one of the top tag teams.

    Also, Kris Travis poses a conundrum for you, widely regarded as someone that would of burst out as a top guy at some point during the UK boom if not for his stomach cancer diagnosis in 2014.
    Rampage felt like an early star for Progress, and he did get noticed by the WWE before that. He'll be a solid worker for sure. And the Riots will be one of the better tag teams on the UK/Euro scene for sure. Honestly, it will be hard not to overpower Jimmy Havoc since I loved his whole Progress story arc so much.

    The Travis issue is one I've mulled a bit. He'll probably be one of the better workers on the UK scene. If he goes on to be a star in the mod, awesome. Fitting tribute for someone who seemed very loved by fans and by fellow wrestlers.

    So two related questions that some of you folks may be able to answer...

    How good was early Dragunov? I've seen his stuff with Walter and newer. But that was 2017. How was earlier Dragunov in the ring?

    How good is Jurn Simmons? I love his look and personality, but he's seen.... decent in the ring in what I've seen. Nothing outstanding. Am I wrong on that?
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Random Opinions Help Request #3 - Japanese Juniors


    Who are some of the best junior workers in Japan? Who is overlooked and underrated?

    Another vague question, but I wanna leave it open. If they have a big reputation or are considered a star, I probably know about them already. Doesn't mean you can't shout em out. Particularly looking for under-the-radar, underrated types that people don't know about or maybe just don't appreciate like we should.

    Can be any type of junior - typical Japanese junior, pure flyer, technician, or power junior.

    I feel like Japan is deeper in juniors than any other type due there being more 170 pound dudes than 250 pounders - and that's true of every wrestling region, really. It also seems like there are a bunch of micro-indies in Japan that run regularly shows and often have their own rosters. So it ends up feeling like an area where I don't know as much as I should and one where hidden gems could easily be hidden.
    Last edited by Big Papa; 09-05-2019 at 09:49 AM.
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  16. #16
    Mr. Victory Through Guts

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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    To be honest outside of NOAH which actually does make their Juniors into a worthwhile part of the company I would argue Jr. Heavyweights are more marginalized than ever in virtually every company. DG and M-Pro are obviously based all around them to opposite degrees of success but I still am kind of hot and cold on DG though they're significantly better now than in years past. The other companies are way up and down at best in quality.

    Fuminori Abe - Freelance - All Around

    Atsushi Kotoge - NOAH - All Around

    Daisuke Harada - NOAH - All Around

    Fujita "Jr." Hayato - Michinoku Pro - Technique/Striker - sadly has cancer and is very sick but before that was one of my favorite wrestlers.

    Hikaru Sato - AJPW - Technical

    Yusuke Okada - AJPW - All Around

    Koji Iwamoto - AJPW - Judo guy

    Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW - Technical/Striker (although woefully underutilized)

    Tetsuya Endo - DDT - High Flyer

    Susumu Yokosuka - Dragon Gate - All Around

    Kaito Ishida - Dragon Gate - All Around

    Eita - Dragon Gate - All Around

    Masaaki Mochizuki - Dragon Gate - Striker

    SUGI - Zero1 - High Flyer

    Ikuto Hidaka - Zero1 - All Around


    We can tell other people about...having faith. What we had faith in. What we found important enough to fight for. It's not whether you were right or wrong, but how much faith you were willing to have, that decides the future~

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    Big Papa's Avatar

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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    To be honest outside of NOAH which actually does make their Juniors into a worthwhile part of the company I would argue Jr. Heavyweights are more marginalized than ever in virtually every company. DG and M-Pro are obviously based all around them to opposite degrees of success but I still am kind of hot and cold on DG though they're significantly better now than in years past. The other companies are way up and down at best in quality.

    Fuminori Abe - Freelance - All Around

    Atsushi Kotoge - NOAH - All Around

    Daisuke Harada - NOAH - All Around

    Fujita "Jr." Hayato - Michinoku Pro - Technique/Striker - sadly has cancer and is very sick but before that was one of my favorite wrestlers.

    Hikaru Sato - AJPW - Technical

    Yusuke Okada - AJPW - All Around

    Koji Iwamoto - AJPW - Judo guy

    Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW - Technical/Striker (although woefully underutilized)

    Tetsuya Endo - DDT - High Flyer

    Susumu Yokosuka - Dragon Gate - All Around

    Kaito Ishida - Dragon Gate - All Around

    Eita - Dragon Gate - All Around

    Masaaki Mochizuki - Dragon Gate - Striker

    SUGI - Zero1 - High Flyer

    Ikuto Hidaka - Zero1 - All Around
    This is unbelievably helpful. Thank you, good sir.

    Workers like Abe and Hashimoto are ones I probably wouldn't be able to find otherwise. Just not plugged in enough. I try to use resources like Cagematch (Strigger deserves a hug from... someone.... for that site) but it can only tell you so much about how "good" a worker is. Even ones with ratings, it only gives you an idea. I use other TEW mods for info, but a lot of them don't seem any more plugged into certain scenes than I am.

    While looking these guys up (on CM lol), I noticed SUGI barely worked for 4 years. Figured injuries but then I saw it was the drug smuggling scandal that I vaguely recall reading about a long while back. The fun part of that it means I have someone I can use the "toxic" feature of TEW on. So that's cool too!
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  18. #18
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Yeah SUGI framed NOSAWA and Io Shirai for smuggling weed into Japan based on a guy in AAA having a grudge with NOSAWA. (Sadly Io and her sister had a rather large falling out over this after Mio publicly disavowed herself from Io) Then NOSAWA used his sleazy underworld connection to nearly get SUGI killed and SUGI had to flee Japan for years before coming back and things cooling off after...well, I have a hunch it's better we don't know what happened. But regardless he came back and admittedly is a fantastic High Flyer, arguably the best. Also he has had so many gimmicks in the past you van freely do anything you want with him in-game.

    Also will tell Strig you said what's up, but I refuse to hug him!
    Last edited by Zero; 09-06-2019 at 01:34 PM.


    We can tell other people about...having faith. What we had faith in. What we found important enough to fight for. It's not whether you were right or wrong, but how much faith you were willing to have, that decides the future~

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  19. #19
    Hail To The King
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    2013: Mil Muetros because 2013 he be alright but 2014 + he ends up becoming a huge name and the top star on Lucha Underground. His real name is Ricky Banderas. He was also wrestling for AAA at the time. In 2013 he also won the rey de reys tourtanment. I just reliazed as I am typing Zero had talked bout him a little but I mean. I put him lower tier top guy I mean he is def a guy that will need a mouthpiece as I am not sure he ever spoke English even in TNA where he was Judas Messis with Jame Mitchell but I can tell you hes a strong guy that can go in the ring. I prob give him like B in most stuff except mic which is prob C-. I think star power he could be a A-


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  20. #20
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    Re: Request: Opinions on Random Wrestling Topics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Yeah SUGI framed NOSAWA and Io Shirai for smuggling weed into Japan based on a guy in AAA having a grudge with NOSAWA. (Sadly Io and her sister had a rather large falling out over this after Mio publicly disavowed herself from Io) Then NOSAWA used his sleazy underworld connection to nearly get SUGI killed and SUGI had to flee Japan for years before coming back and things cooling off after...well, I have a hunch it's better we don't know what happened. But regardless he came back and admittedly is a fantastic High Flyer, arguably the best. Also he has had so many gimmicks in the past you van freely do anything you want with him in-game.

    Also will tell Strig you said what's up, but I refuse to hug him!
    That kind of drama is worthy of a Netflix series, especially when you mix in NOSAWA bringing in sleezy, possibly Yakuza connections into play. Someone call a production company.

    I recall something about the relationship between Mio and Io but didn't realize it pegged back to this. That's another thing I can reflect in the mod.

    SUGI could end up being one of the more fun workers in the mod in a lot of ways. In TEW, scandals make a worker toxic and it can have a negative impact if a company has them on the roster. So you end up with things like Mick Foley being revealed to be someone who sleeps with hookers and ends up fired by the WWF at the height of the Attitude Era. But I don't think it impacts smaller companies as much, so I'm curious if he catches on with a smaller company in Japan.

    Well, I did say SOMEONE should hug Strig. I nominate Ed.
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