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Thread: The New Day

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    The New Day

    I thought about doing seperate threads for these guys we might as well just use one for them all.

    Hard to gauge where they go as they feel like the sum of them as a team is greater than the parts. On their own all 3 are pretty mediocre singles guys, but they all shine in a tag team setting and bring something different.

    To me, Big E is clearly the best of the group and maybe the best babyface tag worker of recent years. Great powerhouse offence, impressive strength spots, takes loads of wild bumps, and is great even when working the apron.

    Kofi works as a tag guy who is FIP then hits cool highspots.

    Xavier as the weaker link who then came to the table and delivered in some of those Uso's matches was a great internal story that didn't really get talked about.

    Big E feels like a lock for me but not 100% on Kofi or Xavier yet.

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    Re: The New Day

    No chance for any of them. Big E's a nice athletic big man but has never had a singles match even as good as Rusev just had with Nakamura who I think is terrible. Again we're talking top 50 here, I love those Usos matches as much as anyone but it's gonna take a lot more than that.

    Kofi? Never was good on his own & owes his career to being the spot guy & third guy in this group.

    Woods I admittedly have a soft spot for & think he's clearly the best of the 3 when it comes to selling & injecting character into his matches (which is impressive considering I find him to overact way too much on his promos), has a good moveset that teeters the line between various styles & I consider him the MVP of all their best matches. If I had to pick one I'd go with him.

    Overall, the highs are high & I won't deny that but the overall resumé isn't deep enough for me compared to others.

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    Re: The New Day

    saying they've never had singles matches as good as x guy feels rudimentary when they are primarily tag team wrestlers. if you are good at something and bad at something else, and you stick to the thing you're good at, that's a positive.

    outside the Uso's they have also had awesome matches with Cesaro/Kidd, The Bar and the Shield.

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    Re: The New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    saying they've never had singles matches as good as x guy feels rudimentary when they are primarily tag team wrestlers. if you are good at something and bad at something else, and you stick to the thing you're good at, that's a positive.

    outside the Uso's they have also had awesome matches with Cesaro/Kidd, The Bar and the Shield.
    Except in the context of a top 50 worldwide discussion "x" is probably great as a singles & a tag wrestler which is a big consideration to have in terms of their versatility instead of having a couple handful of great matches divided up between 3 guys over the last few years. And their best time's likely passed with makes it even harder looking ahead to 2019 if there aren't any changes made, there were literally 100+ better matches that happened in December alone than their tag 3 way at TLC, I can't imagine them doing better next year honestly.

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    Re: The New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    No chance for any of them. Big E's a nice athletic big man but has never had a singles match even as good as Rusev just had with Nakamura who I think is terrible.
    Pretty irrelevant point when Big E has never been given an opportunity to have a very good TV match with a satisfying title change that lifts it's appeal. Only two of his singles matches in the last 4 years went over 10 minutes. There was enough on show of Big E's gauntlet match with Daniel Bryan (and pre new day stuff) to know if they wanted to go down the road of singles competition with him, he'd be really good. He's been a tag wrestler for the vast majority of this so that's what I'm judging him on.

    They've been one of the best tag teams in the world during this time, I'd slot them behind Usos, but in front of The Bar in terms of tags at the forefront of a fun time in that company for teams. Worldwide I think probably only Ringkampf and Lucha Bros might get ahead of them, and it's likely they will all make my list as singles wrestlers anyway. I think they're absolutely in with a shot of making the bottom end of my list, BUT 2018 was their weakest year yet and if that follows suit in 2019 and teams like LAX or Aussie Open have another killer year then the argument to cut New Day becomes tempting.
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    Re: The New Day

    Again, it's not irrelevant when we are talking about a top 50 wrestler list and comparing these guys to the elite of the elite. In general I really think you're underrating how small 50 is. To judge someone on a handful of tag matches, half of which a given member weren't even in depending on the combination is silly when in comparison to the vast amount of wrestlers who have simply done so much more in-ring.

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    Re: The New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Again, it's not irrelevant when we are talking about a top 50 wrestler list and comparing these guys to the elite of the elite. In general I really think you're underrating how small 50 is. To judge someone on a handful of tag matches, half of which a given member weren't even in depending on the combination is silly when in comparison to the vast amount of wrestlers who have simply done so much more in-ring.
    Your original point wasn't that Big E doesn't wrestle enough (an argument that would of made sense given each New Day man sits out regularly), it was that he has no good singles matches unlike your boy Rusev and that just seemed like an odd standard to hold that anyone list worthy for you needs to have both good singles and tag matches regardless of what they are booked as. I highly doubt you're gonna leave Asuka off your list because she doesn't have one good tag team match in the last 4 years.

    An ability to work a variety of roles and matches is something I'm looking for in my top contenders, but I'm not gonna hold that standard for idk #45.
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    Re: The New Day

    What if I don't think there are 50 singles guys who are better than Big E is as a tag worker? If that makes sense.

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    Re: The New Day

    Ed why would I hold it against Asuka when in pure singles matches we know what she brings to the table whereas in tags it's reliant on a myriad of other things, & in general how can you say who deserves most credit for these matches without extended looks at them on their own? Plus the "good tag worker" is the biggest myth in wrestling history. Ricky Morton? Great singles wrestler. Eaton? Great singles wrestler. The Fantastics? Great singles wrestlers. Taue & Kawada? Great singles wrestlers? Toyota & Yamada? Great singles. Yet all those teams were acclaimed as well and all of them got branded as tag workers at one point or another by people who didn't know what they were talking about. The reason why these guys are in this team is because they're flawed performers & need someone to compliment them to reach that level though I thought E & Woods.

    Rusev is great if you look at how he actually wrestles & how physically charismatic he is which is why he always steps up when he steps up. Looking solely at match quality is an improper way to judge wrestlers for a list like this IMO. Sometimes what you do in a 2-3 star match is more impressive than what someone else does in a great one due to things like quality of opponent, personal investment, so on & so forth.

    To me to make my list either you have to be a highly skilled in-ring performer who makes the absolute most of your time in the ring (Hideki Suzuki, Shotaro Ashino, Hechicero) or someone who is flawed but has too many great matches to deny despite in-ring qualms to be had (there are a ton of guys that fit this bill but for argument's sake lets say Dunne & Bate & Ospreay since they're UK & in contention) The New Day don't have nearly enough matches, nor have they or should they have ever been considered elite in-ring wrestlers in their average TV matches or even close quite frankly. Honest opinion, have any of New Day ever been considered top 10 in the world at:

    Moveset - No
    Selling - No
    Bumping - No
    Effort - No
    Versatility - No
    Physical Charisma - No
    Crowd Interaction - No (Maybe? Not to me)
    Match pacing - No
    Psychology - No
    Fire - No
    Aura - No

    (keep in mind this is hardly an official lists or rankings or anything, but you get the gist of where I'm coming from. They aren't elite wrestlers in any way to make up for the lack of consistency and depth)

    And they have a handful of great matches together, less than dozens and dozens of wrestlers in your own rankings in all likelihood.

    And those matches did peak high & they're all good wrestlers. I know this comes across as negative on them when I'm really not. But I'm grading them on an elite standard and it's not enough in today's world of wrestling. What does Kofi or Big E have that would make you pick them over someone like Iwatani or Ishikawa? Nothing. Because they aren't in the same league as pro wrestlers on their own OR together if you look at their resumê or their in-ring tools.

    Steve, if that's your conclusion after watching more wrestling then and you believe these guys are top 50 workers in the world I have no problem respecting it. Really anyone can use any criteria they want but I'm just speaking on my own personal point of view and I can't imagine anyone with a complete view of the in-ring landscape in the last 5 years going with these guys after like 4 noteworthy matches apiece and their actual in-ring skillsets over the years.

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    Re: The New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Ed why would I hold it against Asuka when in pure singles matches we know what she brings to the table whereas in tags it's reliant on a myriad of other things, & in general how can you say who deserves most credit for these matches without extended looks at them on their own? Plus the "good tag worker" is the biggest myth in wrestling history. Ricky Morton? Great singles wrestler. Eaton? Great singles wrestler. The Fantastics? Great singles wrestlers. Taue & Kawada? Great singles wrestlers? Toyota & Yamada? Great singles. Yet all those teams were acclaimed as well and all of them got branded as tag workers at one point or another by people who didn't know what they were talking about.
    All those wrestles you just listed were granted opportunities to impress as singles wrestlers, especially the ones from Japan. Kofi granted did in the first half of his career and wasn't all that great but that doesn't count for 2015-2019 which is the period of time we're looking at.

    Big E I feel would be a great singles act in WWE because he's popular, he's charismatic and stands out in the acclaimed New Day tag matches as someone who has more to give if they just gave him the ball.

    The reason why these guys are in this team is because they're flawed performers & need someone to compliment them to reach that level though I thought E & Woods.
    The reason they are in a team is because they're a tight group of friends that weren't getting opportunities as singles acts and they work for a racist boss that can't see black wrestlers as anything other than court jesters so they pitched and pitched to be a team until they gave into them. They were driven and had believe in themselves to make something of their career rather than pick up a paycheck for working superstars squashes and I think they deserve more credit for that than 'they are flawed performers'. They have been incredibly successful considering who they work for. I wouldn't call them flawed performers but they were all just ok midcard acts that you knew the company had nothing for.

    Rusev is great if you look at how he actually wrestles & how physically charismatic he is which is why he always steps up when he steps up. Looking solely at match quality is an improper way to judge wrestlers for a list like this IMO. Sometimes what you do in a 2-3 star match is more impressive than what someone else does in a great one due to things like quality of opponent, personal investment, so on & so forth.
    Make the Rusev thread then

    Big E is physically charismatic for sure and I do think that they make the most of the time they are given, they got about 5 minutes at mania for that triple threat and it was better than half the card. In fact I think they're the only team that had anything entertaining with the Bludgeon Brothers.

    To me to make my list either you have to be a highly skilled in-ring performer who makes the absolute most of your time in the ring (Hideki Suzuki, Shotaro Ashino, Hechicero) or someone who is flawed but has too many great matches to deny despite in-ring qualms to be had (there are a ton of guys that fit this bill but for argument's sake lets say Dunne & Bate & Ospreay since they're UK & in contention) The New Day don't have nearly enough matches, nor have they or should they have ever been considered elite in-ring wrestlers in their average TV matches or even close quite frankly.
    Well first of all I don't believe there are 50 elite wrestlers of the world, that sort of devalues the term elite if there's that many of them. It would be like collating a list of the top 50 footballers in the world and using the same word to describe Bobby Firmino as Leo Messi. There's still a big gap at the top of the list to the bottom.

    I am looking at elite wrestlers worldwide for the top half of the list, but after that my mind opens up to wrestlers who were great in their field/company and don't have many contemparies better than them. The New Day to me in this period of time have been one of the best tag teams in the world (aided by other teams breaking up granted), have been one of the best babyface acts in the world, have cemented themselves as one of the best tags and trios in WWE history and arguably one of the biggest African American acts in wrestling history.

    Honest opinion, have any of New Day ever been considered top 10 in the world at:

    Moveset - No
    Selling - No
    Bumping - No
    Effort - No
    Versatility - No
    Physical Charisma - No
    Crowd Interaction - No (Maybe? Not to me)
    Match pacing - No
    Psychology - No
    Fire - No
    Aura - No
    I think their tag matches showcase a lot of psychology, fire, effort. If you don't think New Day are good for crowd interaction, I might as well not bother hitting post reply and wasting my time. They are one of the only things WWE live crowds come alive for, and that's with first hand experience of going to WWE shows.

    Like i say, I'm only considering them for the bottom end of my list and I admitted another year like this one would probably see me cut them for someone that finishes 2019 stronger. You're right that Iwatani and Ishikawa are mechanically better wrestlers, but I get more personal enjoyment out of seeing The New Day when they're on form. Like it or lump it a couple of acts only recognised for being tag team acts will get onto my list (but not Matt and Nick )
    Last edited by Ed; 12-30-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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    Re: The New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    All those wrestles you just listed were granted opportunities to impress as singles wrestlers, especially the ones from Japan. Kofi granted did in the first half of his career and wasn't all that great but that doesn't count for 2015-2019 which is the period of time we're looking at.

    Big E I feel would be a great singles act in WWE because he's popular, he's charismatic and stands out in the acclaimed New Day tag matches as someone who has more to give if they just gave him the ball.
    I agree that Big E is good. Again I think Woods is actually the best of the 3 overall as a purely in-ring talent but Big E's size and stylistic differences make him stand out the most and peoplelatch onto him more. I'm really not hating on them, only saying they don't have enough to make a top 50. Even Kofi plays his role well in the group but I do think there are flaws with them all.


    The reason they are in a team is because they're a tight group of friends that weren't getting opportunities as singles acts and they work for a racist boss that can't see black wrestlers as anything other than court jesters so they pitched and pitched to be a team until they gave into them. They were driven and had believe in themselves to make something of their career rather than pick up a paycheck for working superstars squashes and I think they deserve more credit for that than 'they are flawed performers'. They have been incredibly successful considering who they work for. I wouldn't call them flawed performers but they were all just ok midcard acts that you knew the company had nothing for.
    I mean, I guess I can't argue with Vince being racist and their run being impressive for African Americans, but I'm just talking about their wrestling. Big E got singles shine early on, was good but didn't hit the next level in his matches unless he was against you-know-who. Kofi mediocre, Woods never got a chance admittedly.



    Make the Rusev thread then

    Big E is physically charismatic for sure and I do think that they make the most of the time they are given, they got about 5 minutes at mania for that triple threat and it was better than half the card. In fact I think they're the only team that had anything entertaining with the Bludgeon Brothers.
    No. He's not top 50 either, just better than Big E and Kofi IMO.

    Oh come on that's a huge reach. WM was a total shitshow, me and you could've put together a match better than half that drek. That said, I do agree they got the best out of the Bludgeons though I think Harper is another guy who is a great performer but doesn't have the matches to show it because of being put into bad situations constantly. How does that make New Day top 50 in the world again anyway? That's a nice feather in the cap of a good team not something that puts them in the upper echelon of in-ring performers.



    Well first of all I don't believe there are 50 elite wrestlers of the world, that sort of devalues the term elite if there's that many of them. It would be like collating a list of the top 50 footballers in the world and using the same word to describe Bobby Firmino as Leo Messi. There's still a big gap at the top of the list to the bottom.
    Semantics. Elite, Top 50, Top tier. That list will be smaller than you think again by the time you make it. Even at 100 for GWE there were plenty of guys I wanted to put on and couldn't. The same will happen with this I'm almost certain and it's gonna edge out guys like New Day quick.

    I am looking at elite wrestlers worldwide for the top half of the list, but after that my mind opens up to wrestlers who were great in their field/company and don't have many contemparies better than them. The New Day to me in this period of time have been one of the best tag teams in the world (aided by other teams breaking up granted), have been one of the best babyface acts in the world, have cemented themselves as one of the best tags and trios in WWE history and arguably one of the biggest African American acts in wrestling history.
    I don't even disagree with any of that outside of probably best in-ring tag teams and the pickings are so slim I wouldn't even argue it. I just don't think they're top 50 calibre when compared to some of the others that won't get any traction in this just because they're in WWE and I accept it because it's the nature of the beast but that definitely doesn't mean I can't argue against it.

    I think their tag matches showcase a lot of psychology, fire, effort. If you don't think New Day are good for crowd interaction, I might as well not bother hitting post reply and wasting my time. They are one of the only things WWE live crowds come alive for, and that's with first hand experience of going to WWE shows.
    Yes, I know they do, they're a good team. I'm talking amongst the best in the world for me because that's what it would take to get over their utter lack of match resumé. Saying their matches have those things I agree, but are any of the 3 among the best in the world at those things and put it together to impress on that level? Crowd connection is the only thing I would even consider them on that level on. And they are great at that. The rest is a clear no. Having effort for a few big matches that they each rotate out of per year isn't that impressive either.

    Like i say, I'm only considering them for the bottom end of my list and I admitted another year like this one would probably see me cut them for someone that finishes 2019 stronger. You're right that Iwatani and Ishikawa are mechanically better wrestlers, but I get more personal enjoyment out of seeing The New Day when they're on form. Like it or lump it a couple of acts only recognised for being tag team acts will get onto my list (but not Matt and Nick )
    Well, I can't argue your personal enjoyment and don't even necessarily have a problem with it. All I wish is that you would give those other guys a chance too, since I would suspect your lesser enjoyment in them is because you haven't watched enough of them due to their companies they work for and that's fine. Like I said, when you do do that, I would be surprised if a lot of these flawed performers like New Day (even if you think that flaw is just not enough great matches due to opportunity) make your list by the end.

    The Bucks won't make my list either so good job there.

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    Re: The New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero
    Semantics. Elite, Top 50, Top tier. That list will be smaller than you think again by the time you make it. Even at 100 for GWE there were plenty of guys I wanted to put on and couldn't. The same will happen with this I'm almost certain and it's gonna edge out guys like New Day quick.
    That probably will happen in a matter of weeks as the nominations continue the same way Booker T tried to fit everyone into a fave five At this early stage I'm trying to give a gut reaction/estimation of where people will go and 'in with a shot of making the bottom end of my list' is going to end up being a chopping block of probably another 50 wrestlers. I thought they were worthy of discussion more than some names already mentioned.

    Well, I can't argue your personal enjoyment and don't even necessarily have a problem with it. All I wish is that you would give those other guys a chance too, since I would suspect your lesser enjoyment in them is because you haven't watched enough of them due to their companies they work for and that's fine
    I'm not someone you need to worry about not doing research or ignoring parts of the world.