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Thread: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by The Natural View Post
    Or does a wrestler's physical appearance not matter in pro wrestling? (And when did that happen? And why didn't I get the memo?)
    Physical appearance has never mattered like that. You have your super fit, body people like Cena, Charlotte, , The Rock, Hulk Hogan, Batista. Smaller, normalish looking people like X-Pac, Bret Hart, Scotty 2 Hotty, CM Punk. You have larger people like Rikishi, Yokozuna, Kevin Owens, Nia Jax. Hell, I watched MLW recently and they have a guy on there named Barrington Hughes and he looks unhealthily huge to me.

    He can have his opinion on when she looked better, not debating that. He can comment on it, but he could have done it by saying he preferred when she was "Natural" instead of using the word "Lighter".

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    It has happened more often, Billie Kay had the same surgery around the same time Peyton had hers and hasn't been brought into this argument. Alexa also for sure has as well in the last year, and again, no-one is talking about that in their analysis of what kind of year she's having.

    Who is people? Dave is the only one making the link between the surgery and why he thinks the acts isn't working. I don't think you and I are going to see eye to eye in whether there's value in that link.
    I could be wrong, but I believe Billie was simply getting a bigger size as she already had implants. That might be why he didn't say anything. It should also be noted that Bliss wasn't getting them done for the first time either, just redone. Charlotte also had a recent problem with hers as well.

    That said, there had been a lot of talk about Bliss' when the news first broke. Then again, haters use anything they can to bash her.

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by BXSTXRD View Post
    He can have his opinion on when she looked better, not debating that. He can comment on it, but he could have done it by saying he preferred when she was "Natural" instead of using the word "Lighter".
    Then you're not actually arguing with me. This is from my post that you responded to:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Natural View Post
    To resurrect a dead horse and beat it some more, it's not what he said, it's how he said it. What he's saying is not untrue or offensive, but he could have said it much better.
    Could have just said "I agree" and saved us the time lol.
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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by The Natural View Post
    Alexa is irrelevant to the conversation because her change occurred on the main roster so there's little transition to speak of. Would you agree that Billie Kay is the weaker link in the Iconic Duo? IMO Billie was whatever to begin with but Peyton was actually pretty dope and seems to have lost something in the transition. Naturally, the conversation is going to be about the one who is having the starker contrast.
    I wasn't a fan of either Peyton or Billie's and didn't think their act was something you'd put at the top of either NXT or WWE's womens division. They always had the feel of a jobber to the bigger stars kind of act to me. I would however of expected them to be higher than Sonya and Mandy on the totem pole where as it feels like they are the same level, to me at least.

    People don't often speak about things that don't often happen. If it happened more, it would be discussed more.
    but it has happened more, and hasn't been discussed more.

    And oh my fuck how is this still happening? Did he really say he thinks that's why the act isn't working? Or did he comment on what's not working, then mention something that's changed, and offer his personal opinion about the change? Please do tell. Because I hear a man who references their wrestling and their promos as not being particularly good, then goes on to mention "it's neither here nor there" meaning this does not pertain to the subject at hand (whether or not the act is working) and THEN mentions the physical change. He goes on to make a factual statement that she was lighter (without the breast augmentation) and offers the opinion that she stood out more (which could be construed as a reason why it's not working, but could just as easily be construed as Dave positing a semi-related thought). But even if you wanna take the 'lets go with the worse option' route, all Dave would be suggesting is that not standing out on the main roster isn't helpful. And that's not offensive, either!

    To resurrect a dead horse and beat it some more, it's not what he said, it's how he said it. What he's saying is not untrue or offensive, but he could have said it much better.

    Spoiler:

    When he said he thought she was more attractive, was lighter and stood out more on NXT, I interpreted that as Dave thinks these points are all interconnected to the topic on hand about Iiconics on the main roster and the 'neither here nor there' part was sort of his cover to make a comment in code about her boob job. Now, you can get donkey kong frustrated again if my interpretation of those comments are different to yours, but when Dave has a history of being vague, incoherent and hesitant in his audio, I don't think it's my fault that different interpretations of what he said exist.

    Meltzer defenders have been saying Dave's comments need to be assessed in the full context he was also talking about promos and matches in a point about the differences between NXT and WWE. However if he's saying 'that's neither here nor there' and therefore what he's about to say doesn't pertain to the subject at hand, I'm not sure how much context can excuse him. If he is already priming his listeners that what he's about to say doesn't pertain to what he was just talking about, and goes on to make no further point then they just float as one mans comments about a women's attractiveness and cosmetic surgery and his listeners can fill in the blanks on what he means by that. I think a point where you and I differ is that I don't think there's much merit in bringing up someone's attractiveness, male or female, in wrestling analysis because I don't think that's ever mattered less to the wrestling industry than it does today and it's super subjective (like more subjective than was that match/promo good because beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz), but if I did think there was merit in that topic, I'd want something a bit more substantial in paid wrestling analysis than beating around the bush and not explaining yourself.

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    I wasn't a fan of either Peyton or Billie's and didn't think their act was something you'd put at the top of either NXT or WWE's womens division. They always had the feel of a jobber to the bigger stars kind of act to me. I would however of expected them to be higher than Sonya and Mandy on the totem pole where as it feels like they are the same level, to me at least.
    Interesting. I saw Peyton Royce as a future star but I have no interest in Billie Kay. Peyton's ring work improves over time but Billie is stagnant. And it's neither here nor there but I think Billie wears too much makeup. Time for me to die, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    but it has happened more, and hasn't been discussed more.
    Oh yeah? How about offering some names, since you're so confident. Sicaro offered a well-reasoned take on why Billie Kay and Alexa Bliss aren't examples. So who else you got?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    When he said he thought she was more attractive, was lighter and stood out more on NXT, I interpreted that as Dave thinks these points are all interconnected to the topic on hand about Iiconics on the main roster and the 'neither here nor there' part was sort of his cover to make a comment in code about her boob job. Now, you can get donkey kong frustrated again if my interpretation of those comments are different to yours, but when Dave has a history of being vague, incoherent and hesitant in his audio, I don't think it's my fault that different interpretations of what he said exist.
    No, that's not a "cover," I don't even know what you are implying by that. "It's neither here nor there" literally only ever means one thing, and that's "it's not really related to what we are discussing." You can look it up and see that it's actually defined as "of no importance or relevance." Go ahead. Google it. You'll see.

    I could interpret words differently all day but when the dictionary sides with the person saying the things, then I'd be the goose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    Meltzer defenders have been saying Dave's comments need to be assessed in the full context he was also talking about promos and matches in a point about the differences between NXT and WWE. However if he's saying 'that's neither here nor there' and therefore what he's about to say doesn't pertain to the subject at hand, I'm not sure how much context can excuse him.
    The context bit is to excuse him from weight-shaming or body-shaming, because he is doing neither thing. He is talking about his personal opinion, saying nothing offensive, and doing no shaming of any kind. That's where the comments about context comes in. Because it was misinterpreted as a quote about her weight, as I have already gone to great detail to explain, based on her comment about starving.

    There are two separate parts to this - people ignoring the context of what he said, so that "lighter" does not refer to weight and that the comments aren't a suggestion as to what is failing but rather an aside while on the subject of changes between NXT and the main roster. Once you accept both of these things, you find there is a lot less to be outraged about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    If he is already priming his listeners that what he's about to say doesn't pertain to what he was just talking about, and goes on to make no further point then they just float as one mans comments about a women's attractiveness and cosmetic surgery and his listeners can fill in the blanks on what he means by that. I think a point where you and I differ is that I don't think there's much merit in bringing up someone's attractiveness, male or female, in wrestling analysis because I don't think that's ever mattered less to the wrestling industry than it does today and it's super subjective (like more subjective than was that match/promo good because beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz), but if I did think there was merit in that topic, I'd want something a bit more substantial in paid wrestling analysis than beating around the bush and not explaining yourself.
    And that's fine, but Dave's Dave and it was just an innocent, offhand comment. That's why when the story broke, the most upvoted comments on Reddit were about the court of public outrage and how people were making something of nothing again. They were, they are, and it's almost amusing/sad. But literally nothing in that paragraph does anything to justify the level of outrage displayed elsewhere on the internet and in responses to this thread.
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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by The Natural View Post
    Interesting. I saw Peyton Royce as a future star but I have no interest in Billie Kay. Peyton's ring work improves over time but Billie is stagnant. And it's neither here nor there but I think Billie wears too much makeup. Time for me to die, I guess.
    I think the company thought Billie was the stronger of the two to start because she was the one getting the Takeover spots (to job to others) but over time that transitioned into Peyton being the one used more.

    Oh yeah? How about offering some names, since you're so confident. Sicaro offered a well-reasoned take on why Billie Kay and Alexa Bliss aren't examples. So who else you got?
    If Billie Kay being taken out of the equation because she already had a boob job and was having an enhancement is a well-reasoned take to you, we're at a dead end here so there's no point. In Dave Meltzer's world both girls would of been lighter in NXT.

    No, that's not a "cover," I don't even know what you are implying by that. "It's neither here nor there" literally only ever means one thing, and that's "it's not really related to what we are discussing." You can look it up and see that it's actually defined as "of no importance or relevance." Go ahead. Google it. You'll see.

    I could interpret words differently all day but when the dictionary sides with the person saying the things, then I'd be the goose.
    I'm implying Dave said it because he knows what he's about to say is touchy ground so he better prefix it with something to soften the blow, aka not that there's anything wrong with that. He could well believe what he is saying is of no importance or relevance, or he could have some belief that attractiveness matters in the business and that might be a factor here and that's why it popped into his head when rambling but better cover his tracks with 'that's neither here nor there'

    The definition of a phrase and the motive behind saying a phrase aren't the same thing, but thanks for the condescending dictionary sideshow.

    The context bit is to excuse him from weight-shaming or body-shaming, because he is doing neither thing. He is talking about his personal opinion, saying nothing offensive, and doing no shaming of any kind. That's where the comments about context comes in. Because it was misinterpreted as a quote about her weight, as I have already gone to great detail to explain, based on her comment about starving.

    There are two separate parts to this - people ignoring the context of what he said, so that "lighter" does not refer to weight and that the comments aren't a suggestion as to what is failing but rather an aside while on the subject of changes between NXT and the main roster. Once you accept both of these things, you find there is a lot less to be outraged about.
    I was the first person in this thread to say he's talking about her surgery not her weight. My belief is the aside looks no better or of any value when the context is applied.

    And that's fine, but Dave's Dave and it was just an innocent, offhand comment. That's why when the story broke, the most upvoted comments on Reddit were about the court of public outrage and how people were making something of nothing again. They were, they are, and it's almost amusing/sad. But literally nothing in that paragraph does anything to justify the level of outrage displayed elsewhere on the internet and in responses to this thread.
    What an utterly pointless comment about what reddit posters think. The same community that voted Jeff Hardy and Edge in their top 10 male wrestlers of all time this week with Ric Flair nowhere to be seen. There's probably a corner of reddit who think that Trump's a good president too, it doesn't make it so.

    The outrage about the outrage might be bigger than the outrage at this point.

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    To be fair, Reddit's wrestling community is on the whole a fucking shithole and full of idiots and sheep.

    The Meltzer situation is pretty straightforward to me. You can make a dumb offensive comment without being a terrible person, especially since Meltzer struggles to get his point across at the best of times for various reasons. He made a dumb comment that people were offended by, and he gave a very long, sincere apology. Whether people want to accept it or not is another thing, but it's been blown out of all proportion, and I don't think Meltz is some woman-hating monster or an asshole for saying it. Like Ed said, it's like there's more outrage over the outrage of the outrage.
    Last edited by Shock; 08-19-2018 at 02:06 PM.

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    The outrage about the outrage might be bigger than the outrage at this point.
    Hundred percent. The Meltzer fanboys came out in full force to defend their guy and I can't believe Natty is still going on about it when the internet collectively is already over it. Meltzer doesn't need defended, he's fine, the news cycle has changed. The reasonable people accepted his apology, the crazy people have found something else to get mad about, and the world has kept spinning.



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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Silk View Post
    Hundred percent. The Meltzer fanboys came out in full force to defend their guy and I can't believe Natty is still going on about it when the internet collectively is already over it. Meltzer doesn't need defended, he's fine, the news cycle has changed. The reasonable people accepted his apology, the crazy people have found something else to get mad about, and the world has kept spinning.
    The crazy thing is, The Meltzer Fan Club is the one still talking about it most and trying to defend their master.

    The whole thing is done and over with. I don't have any strong opinions on him either way, because as far as I'm concerned he's just another reporter. I think he comes off as kind of a pompous ass, sure. But it seems like people either completely despise him or love him to pieces.
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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Silk View Post
    Hundred percent.
    Really? Hundred percent? The outrage about the outrage is bigger than the outrage? Because I'm pretty sure nobody's reaction to "the outrage" was this severe or vitriolic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Silk View Post
    What a piece of shit ... fuck off you patronizing piece of shit.
    Have some fucking perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silk View Post
    The Meltzer fanboys came out in full force to defend their guy and I can't believe Natty is still going on about it when the internet collectively is already over it. Meltzer doesn't need defended, he's fine, the news cycle has changed. The reasonable people accepted his apology, the crazy people have found something else to get mad about, and the world has kept spinning.
    Replying to replies - business as usual on a message board. I didn't see the reactions on here until a couple days later, forgive me for not being more timely.
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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    If Meltzer reads this message board I'll be sure to apologize for hurting his feelings. Also I accepted his apology but feel free to skip that in the timeline.

    It's impossible to measure "vitriol" but all I'm saying is most of the people mad at Meltz dropped it in a day or two and yet here you are still fighting his crusade. That's my point.



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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Silk View Post
    If Meltzer reads this message board I'll be sure to apologize for hurting his feelings. Also I accepted his apology but feel free to skip that in the timeline.
    You accepted his apology after spouting vitriol like that, so what? Your overreaction doesn't go away because you acknowledge that he's remorseful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silk View Post
    It's impossible to measure "vitriol" but all I'm saying is most of the people mad at Meltz dropped it in a day or two and yet here you are still fighting his crusade. That's my point.
    Your point is that I am replying to people who are talking about this subject? That's how conversation works... I made a post that might have been my last, but people responded, so discussion took place. I would absolutely be satisfied "dropping it in a day or two," but you people just keep on replying! Why are you replying if you don't want this to be an ongoing conversation?

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by The Natural View Post
    Why are you replying if you don't want this to be an ongoing conversation?

    Because it's actually hilarious watching you churn out furiously typed essays in defense of Big Dave



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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    As someone who hasn’t had stock in Meltzer’s opinion since like [insert random late 2000s year], I find the ones dismissing those who side with him as “crusaders” equally pompous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakstang
    You can't have a reasonable discussion about serious topics with people like Marketh around.

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Why anyone puts so much weight into the opinion of what one wrestling fan+journalist has to say, and holds his standards of what is good or bad for wrestling matches is beyond me.
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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by TB12 View Post
    Why anyone puts so much weight into the opinion of what one wrestling fan+journalist has to say, and holds his standards of what is good or bad for wrestling matches is beyond me.
    What’s confusing about that? It’s the same reason people might trust certain film, music or video game critics.

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Because a large portion of it comes down to personal opinion.


    And there are dozens of critics in cinema and gaming the like, and numerous review sites. All of which have a good amount of merit.

    But nope, with wrestling it's Meltzer or nothing.
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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by TB12 View Post
    Because a large portion of it comes down to personal opinion.


    And there are dozens of critics in cinema and gaming the like, and numerous review sites. All of which have a good amount of merit.

    But nope, with wrestling it's Meltzer or nothing.
    It's a niche industry with no real journalists working in it, and very little credibility.

    Everyone has their favourites. Some people swear by Roger Ebert reviews for example.

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by TB12 View Post
    But nope, with wrestling it's Meltzer or nothing.
    Well that’s not true at all. Meltzer is the most popular, but he’s not the only critic of wrestling. Anyone connected with WON/F4W like Bryan and Vinny, wade Keller and anyone connected to the torch, Mike Johnson and anyone connected to the insider not on the computer virus ads team, Sean Ross Sapp and anyone connected to fightful, Ryan satin and anyone connected to pro wrestling sheet, David Bix (freelance). There’s literal 100s of podcasts and YouTube shows out there of people being wrestling critics (including our own Dylan Harris), not to mention all the old wrestlers that have weekly podcasts where they critique the current industry.

    Meltzer or nothing!

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    Re: Peyton Royce Calls Out Dave Meltzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    If Billie Kay being taken out of the equation because she already had a boob job and was having an enhancement is a well-reasoned take to you, we're at a dead end here so there's no point. In Dave Meltzer's world both girls would of been lighter in NXT.
    The whole point I was making is they both had already had boob jobs in NXT (Billie and Alexa). Where as Peyton didn't. So only Peyton of the IIconics was different in that regards on the main roster.

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