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Thread: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    Really curious how much patience Chelsea is going to show with Sarri. Its only partly his fault but its going to fall on his head. Great result for Arsenal.
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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    I think even if he wins the Europa League they’ll sack him in the summer. The league campaign hasn’t been good enough and there’s no signs that they are moving forward as a club and he has the adaptability to improve next year.

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    As a Chelsea fan I think he might even be gone during this international window. Not ideal but also I'm flustered to see why he keeps making he same mistakes over and over. His only tactical changes are replacing players with like for like players. There is no plan B.

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    I'm still baffled around this Sarri stuff. If he gets fired now/end of the season then far bigger questions have to be asked of the hierarchy than of him. He wasn't exactly renowned for his tactical flexibility at Napoli (and, from what I saw of Napoli last year, what's happening at Chelsea isn't "Sarri-ball" as it's intended), so to fire him for it less than a year later is incredibly short-sighted. If you think that will be a problem, don't hire him in the first place. If you want to completely change the playing style, don't fire him after less than a season, and without having even had pre-season to get his stuff across.

    It's not rare for a manager to start relatively slow, either. Klopp joined Liverpool in October and that season they finished 8th (they were 10th when he came in), and his first full season they came 4th (in Rodger's final season, they came 6th). In Pochettino's first season Spurs came 5th (from 6th the season before). In Guardiola's first season they came 3rd (from 4th the year before). They're generally considered the 3 top managers in the league and the 3 in the title race the longest this year, and none of them had immediate success. In fact, those that had something resembling immediate success during that time (Mourinho at United, Conte at Chelsea) haven't lasted longer term, while those that started slower have generally lasted longer. I know that all three showed more signs of progress than Sarri has managed, but still, I think it's interesting.

    The other thing is that there are 6 huge teams, and only 4 places. By definition there has to be 2 that miss out. Apart from Man City, in the last 5 seasons, all of the Big 6 have finished outside the Champion's League places at least once. In that time, Chelsea have finished 10th, Liverpool 8th, United 7th, Spurs 6th, Arsenal 6th, and City 4th. Everyone is capable of having a poor year.

    It will sound like I'm defending Sarri, I know, and I'm really not. There have been times where I've been really unimpressed with him this season, and if he can't buy any new players to help fit his system during the transfer ban (although it's the same for any manager who comes in) then it's possible things won't get better. He absolutely might be the wrong guy for the job, 100%. I just find the short-termism kind of tiring. People say they want to build long term success, but when things aren't immediately how they want it to be, they want widescale changes. That's the opposite of long term success.

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    I'd be disappointed if Sarri got fired. I think he's a good manager who could bring stability to the Chelsea over a long term period if given the chance. It took time for him to get settled at Napoli too, it was in his second seasont that thigs really took off for him there.

    I think it would be strange and poor timing to sack him now. I think they should have got rid of him sooner if they were going to do it at all. At this point they may as well stick with him until the end of the season at least and then revaluate in the summer. I think he deserves to still be the club forthe start of next season. I think a proper pre-season, a chance to mould the team a bit more with some players out and new ones in and he'll have a better chance to have a better crack next season.
    If you look at how they started this season then they have the potential to be a force to be reckoned with.

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sykotic View Post
    As a Chelsea fan I think he might even be gone during this international window. Not ideal but also I'm flustered to see why he keeps making he same mistakes over and over. His only tactical changes are replacing players with like for like players. There is no plan B.
    As Keefmoon said, there never has been a Plan B with Sarri. That was known when he was with Napoli, and it was a complaint there. Pretty sure he has openly said at Chelsea that he does not and will not adapt tactically. And he was taking over a squad built with a defensive focus for the last couple of managers, so it was obvious that a period of adaption and squad-building would be necessary. Seems like the anger is at problems that were obvious and clear from the very beginning.
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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papa View Post
    As Keefmoon said, there never has been a Plan B with Sarri. That was known when he was with Napoli, and it was a complaint there. Pretty sure he has openly said at Chelsea that he does not and will not adapt tactically. And he was taking over a squad built with a defensive focus for the last couple of managers, so it was obvious that a period of adaption and squad-building would be necessary. Seems like the anger is at problems that were obvious and clear from the very beginning.
    He reminds me of Andre Villas Boas. He was successful with Porto with an ultra attacking, high press, high line tactic. Came to Chelsea and tried to play the same way with a defence of John Terry and Gary Cahill when neither man was suited to it. Create the system to fit the players, not the other way around. It's what separates great managers like Fergie, who knew the limitations of his players, and a one trick pony like Sarri.

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    It’s true though that nothing will change whilst the board continues to operate the way it does.

    The signings of Morata, Drinkwater, Bakayoko and Zappacosta show exactly what’s wrong with Chelsea. Coupled in with the sales of players like Ake & Costa who are either better prospects long term or better than the players replacing them. If we continue to replace players with those that aren’t as good we will see a drop in overall performance.

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    He reminds me of Andre Villas Boas. He was successful with Porto with an ultra attacking, high press, high line tactic. Came to Chelsea and tried to play the same way with a defence of John Terry and Gary Cahill when neither man was suited to it. Create the system to fit the players, not the other way around. It's what separates great managers like Fergie, who knew the limitations of his players, and a one trick pony like Sarri.
    That's true, but again, I place the blame at the club for appointing them in the first place. You can't hire Sarri and be surprised that he has one style of playing. If you think that could be a problem, hire a manager who isn't so rigid. But once you've hired him, flipping to someone else straight away because it isn't working is madness. Like Syk says, it's a board issue. If you jump from manager to manager, each with their own opinions on how the game should be played, don't be shocked when you end up with a incoherent mess.

    And while I do agree that ability to be flexible can be a sign of a good manager, it's interesting that the managers who have typically been highly-regarded or seen as influential over the last ten years (Guardiola, Mourinho, Klopp, Simeone, even Wenger, Bielsa, Van Gaal, and yes, Sarri) have a pretty set way of playing that they rarely move from, and expect the players to catch up to them or leave. Sure, the best ones have more in-game flexibility than Sarri has, and that rigidity can be their eventual downfall (Mourinho, Wenger, Val Gaal), but Guardiola is pretty well known for thinking his Plan B is doing Plan A better.

    My point is that Chelsea decided they wanted Sarri-ball, warts and all. That's what they thought their identity should be (and that's what Abramovic wants, right? An entertaining identity?). Likewise with AVB. It's not Sarri or AVB's fault that they're brought in because they play a certain way, then get fired when it doesn't work and they decide they want another identity. Chelsea have been really lucky that the likes of Mourinho and Conte hit the ground running when they came in, but those are the outliers, not the norm. Generally speaking, jumping around from manager to manager ends up with... well, what they have now. I thought the point of Sarri was that this was supposed to be building something bigger than what came before. Fire him after no pre-season and less than a full year, and what does that say about what you want to achieve?

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefmoon View Post
    That's true, but again, I place the blame at the club for appointing them in the first place. You can't hire Sarri and be surprised that he has one style of playing. If you think that could be a problem, hire a manager who isn't so rigid. But once you've hired him, flipping to someone else straight away because it isn't working is madness.
    I dunno, last time Chelsea decided to cut their losses with AVB it ended up alright for them.

    And while I do agree that ability to be flexible can be a sign of a good manager, it's interesting that the managers who have typically been highly-regarded or seen as influential over the last ten years (Guardiola, Mourinho, Klopp, Simeone, even Wenger, Bielsa, Van Gaal, and yes, Sarri) have a pretty set way of playing that they rarely move from, and expect the players to catch up to them or leave. Sure, the best ones have more in-game flexibility than Sarri has, and that rigidity can be their eventual downfall (Mourinho, Wenger, Val Gaal), but Guardiola is pretty well known for thinking his Plan B is doing Plan A better.

    My point is that Chelsea decided they wanted Sarri-ball, warts and all. That's what they thought their identity should be (and that's what Abramovic wants, right? An entertaining identity?). Likewise with AVB. It's not Sarri or AVB's fault that they're brought in because they play a certain way, then get fired when it doesn't work and they decide they want another identity. Chelsea have been really lucky that the likes of Mourinho and Conte hit the ground running when they came in, but those are the outliers, not the norm. Generally speaking, jumping around from manager to manager ends up with... well, what they have now. I thought the point of Sarri was that this was supposed to be building something bigger than what came before. Fire him after no pre-season and less than a full year, and what does that say about what you want to achieve?
    I disagree. If you hire a manager their primary objective is to get the best they can out of a team. If they can't do that because they are stubborn or incapable, then that falls on the manager. If it isn't working and they aren't willing to change, then why would an owner think - yeah let's give this guy more money and time.

    Also I think that the managers you listed above are far more flexible than you give them credit for. Look at Klopps Liverpool. Yeah they play a similar style, but they have adapted in just the last year. Now they are less aggressive, more patient, less attacking, but very solid defensively. Klopp saw an issue (that they were leaking goals like mad) and adapted. Yes, the signing of vvd helped, but there's a big difference between Liverpool last year and this year when you see them play.

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I dunno, last time Chelsea decided to cut their losses with AVB it ended up alright for them.
    Sure. I'm not intending to argue that sacking Sarri won't mean they can't get better results. My point is flip flopping all over the place isn't going to yield the long term results. If Chelsea are fine with firing a manager every 9 months to 2 years and fluctuating wildly between success and failure, and struggling to find an identity or playing style that consistently gets the best out of the assets they have, then what they are doing is fine. My understanding was that they wanted to build something bigger than that.

    I'm not saying Sarri is the guy to do that, and it's hard to argue that results haven't been good enough (although they are 4 points off third), I'm arguing that the mechanism for choosing managers is fucked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I disagree. If you hire a manager their primary objective is to get the best they can out of a team. If they can't do that because they are stubborn or incapable, then that falls on the manager. If it isn't working and they aren't willing to change, then why would an owner think - yeah let's give this guy more money and time.
    Again, I don't disagree. I'm not saying "don't fire him", or "he's done a good job". What I'm saying is, "what did they expect?" If they want to stop jumping around between flavour of the month managers, then don't hire people with very defined principles and then get annoyed when they stick to them. Again, not saying Sarri is right, I'm saying that him being tactically inflexible was widely known when he was hired, and that falls on the board for hiring him in the first place if they aren't willing to wait it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Also I think that the managers you listed above are far more flexible than you give them credit for. Look at Klopps Liverpool. Yeah they play a similar style, but they have adapted in just the last year. Now they are less aggressive, more patient, less attacking, but very solid defensively. Klopp saw an issue (that they were leaking goals like mad) and adapted. Yes, the signing of vvd helped, but there's a big difference between Liverpool last year and this year when you see them play.
    Yeah, but Klopp has been there 3.5 years. It took him the best part of 3 years to make that tactical change. I love Klopp, and I think he's a fantastic manager. But it took him time as well. The complaints about playing style were levelled at him in his first few seasons (like it says here from the time, "If there is an area of contention and criticism about Klopp's two years at Anfield, it is that problem areas that existed when he arrived are still in evidence."), and Guardiola in his (like this article from the time points out when he says he refuses to compromise his style). Sarri has been there 8 months.

    At the risk of getting repetitive, I'm not saying that Sarri is the right manager for the job. What I'm saying is, if you want to build something long term, then don't panic when it takes time. If you want results short term, don't hire someone whose style will take a long time to bed in. He's not faultless by any means, but the biggest blame has to go to those who hired him in the first place.

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    Chelsea aren't a long term club though, it's not really in their culture. They've had some of the best managers on the last 15 years but how many have lasted even 3 years?

    Fair play to them too, they change it up and on the whole they still win things pretty consistently. They'll sack Sarri and probably will be back winning the league again once Pep gets bored

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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Chelsea aren't a long term club though, it's not really in their culture. They've had some of the best managers on the last 15 years but how many have lasted even 3 years?

    Fair play to them too, they change it up and on the whole they still win things pretty consistently. They'll sack Sarri and probably will be back winning the league again once Pep gets bored

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    You are correct. The problem that some of us have is that they continue to act like they WANT to be a long-term club. Both in terms of the manager they hired and they way they keep screwing around with young high potential players.

    Hiring a manager who is known to be inflexible and utilizes one system - and only THAT system - which differs significantly from what the club current is and has, KNOWING that a significant switch in playing styles will take time to implement properly, then panicking when things aren't going BEST CASE SCENARIO is.... just irrational to me. Its basically freaking out when the predicted and expected outcome occurs.

    Its from the top of the club down to the supporters. I've mentioned some of the Sarri out contingent and I'm sure some of it is trolls but some don't seem to be. There is just an inherent lack of patience that means that transforming the club as some seem to demand just isn't that likely.

    You are also correct on the regular success. Maybe they should just embrace the reality of being a short-termist club.
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  14. #354
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    Re: Premier League 2018/19 Discussion Thread

    The problem is until Roman leaves Chelsea won't be changing that short term kind of thing anyway. Sarri's approach has worked in Italy once given the time so if he was given the time i'm sure he could prove his worth.
    I have a plan so cunning......

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