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Thread: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Forgive me for asking this but why should Scotland have a second referendum so soon after the 2014 one? I'm fairly un-associated with the Scottish referendum but seeing as 85% of people turned out and the vote was 45%-55%, surely we can't expect another referendum for many years to come?




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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Just a shame that I can't see any kind of independence vote for a while. As long as the Tories keep getting majorities, they have no reason to put it to another vote, and I think they're quite happy with Scotland being vocal but non-aggressive about independence.

    And I doubt Labour would go for independence either since it would probably cost them English voters, which they need to win back. The best thing Scotland can hope for is hung parliaments to force the issue.
    Scottish elections being a complete blowout for SNP and pro Indy parties is going to make it very difficult for them to keep ignoring. If they do so, it just pushes support up regardless. It's win-win imo.

    But yeah, Labour and the Tories won't be bothered about that too much I guess. At least the Tories are doing a great job in making the case tho.


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  3. #763
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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    Forgive me for asking this but why should Scotland have a second referendum so soon after the 2014 one? I'm fairly un-associated with the Scottish referendum but seeing as 85% of people turned out and the vote was 45%-55%, surely we can't expect another referendum for many years to come?
    In short, the political landscape is very different to what it was in 2014. Brexit is the big example. In the 2014, Scottish voters had scare tactics used against them that we wouldn't be able to rejoin the EU if we left the UK (using Spain and Catalonia as the big example). This is both a lie, as Spain have said they wouldn't have an issue with it, and now irrelevant since we're being forced out despite Scotland overwhelmingly voting to stay in the EU. Add this in to a government that is seen as incompetent and malicious, and a government that promised a lot to Scotland in 2014 and has failed to deliver on.

    There are 59 seats in Scotland. The SNP won 48 of those in 2019 (+13 from 2017), and the main mandate of the SNP is to remove Scotland from the UK. The demand and evidence for another say is there.







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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    Forgive me for asking this but why should Scotland have a second referendum so soon after the 2014 one? I'm fairly un-associated with the Scottish referendum but seeing as 85% of people turned out and the vote was 45%-55%, surely we can't expect another referendum for many years to come?
    Yes because that's all that matters when defining whether referendums should happen?

    Here's a multitude of reasons:

    1. The independence referendum of 2014 took place in different circumstances. The goalposts have been moved ever since we voted to leave the EU. It's a known fact that the No side campaigned HEAVILY on the idea that an independent Scotland would not be in the EU and the only way to keep our place was to vote NO. We voted NO and we are still out of the EU. This is a major sticking point because Scotland voted to remain in the EU. A proof positive example of how England and Scotland are different politically. Yet another example of Scotland's say being totally ignored. What's the point of being in this union if literally anything we do/want doesn't matter? We're not treated as an equal partner otherwise there would've been an attempt by the UK Government to safeguard Scotland from Brexit similar to how it has apparently tried with NI.

    2. The Scottish electorate has clearly elected the SNP to speak for Scotland time after time. The SNP consistently win the elections and have a manifesto that is pretty much pledged towards obtaining independence and a second referendum. If the SNP are elected on a manifesto which asks for a second referendum, how can you deny the clear democratic mandate they have in asking for one? If the people didn't want one, they wouldn't vote for them. Pro-Indy parties are on the rise in Scotland whilst the unionist parties are being propped up more and more by their stereotypical fanbases and not people in the middle.


    I'm more inclined to hear what the reasons are for NOT having one so soon again - which democratic mandate, since the indyref vote, has the UK government been given by the people of Scotland to deny a referendum or anything that progresses towards independence?

    Excluding the once in a generation go to Salmond quote... since he's not actually a part of the SNP or the Government anymore therefore anything he has said is irrelevant.


    Forgot to add: but COVID has only exemplified the difference between Scotgov and UKgov to others. Whilst I don't think we have done a fantastic job here, I am certainly more trusting in Sturgeon being more transparent than BoJo. And that is evidently the view of most of us. More people would trust Sturgeon to run this country properly than Boris and the Tories.

    second edit: it also doesn't help that the Scot Tories and Labour etc parties are viewed as just being slaves to their Westminster counterparts. They have no actual policy other than to follow their leader. Jackson Carlaw is a terrible politician who gets shown up time and time again. Willie Rennie is a complete ghost. Richard Leonard is about the best of the lot and still most people in Scotland don't know who he is.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 07-05-2020 at 07:15 AM.


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  5. #765
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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    second edit: it also doesn't help that the Scot Tories and Labour etc parties are viewed as just being slaves to their Westminster counterparts. They have no actual policy other than to follow their leader. Jackson Carlaw is a terrible politician who gets shown up time and time again. Willie Rennie is a complete ghost. Richard Leonard is about the best of the lot and still most people in Scotland don't know who he is.
    This is a very good point. The Tories will always get some votes in Scotland, despite being a minority opinion in Scotland. Labour is a party that should be politically aligned with Scotland, but considering their MPs would literally rather you vote for the Conservatives over the SNP says it all about how much they care about Scotland's opinion.







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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Yup. Alot of votes for these parties are taken as a given so they don't feel the need to take us as seriously as the SNP do - because the SNP's vote is entirely dependent on us.

    What's amazing is that independence has hardly been mentioned recently by Sturgeon and the SNP. I actually find that the other parties mention it more because it's really all they have to bleat on about to appeal their fanbases. They'll stay quiet where hypocrisy is exposed (Jackson Carlaw took a LONG time to condemn Cummings - not sure if eh actually has - versus taking milliseconds to condemn Catherine Calderwood and others). The actual campaign for independence this time around has not even started yet and that should seriously frighten those opposed to it. Westminster is fucking up so bad to most Scots that it's basically THE campaign for independence right now.

    The NO side had it all to offer in 2014. They have nothing else in 2020 other than SNP bad, indy bad and oil lulz. People stopped to think about the economy and hypotheticals in 2014, I don't think that's enough to scare people into voting against Independence this time. More and more people are realising what the actual problem is and want to combat that instead of made up scenarios.


    off the topic of independence, just seen article saying that NHS chiefs are trying to secure extra funding from the Treasury and being told to fuck off. Some appreciation for the service that is. Guess claps will protect us all during a potential second infection wave.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 07-05-2020 at 07:57 AM.


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  7. #767
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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    The China situation is starting to get interesting to follow. Between Hong Kong, Huawai, and however Covid-19 started, you get the feeling something is gonna give shortly.

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