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Thread: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Looking at my Facebook page it seems people haven't learned from Brexit or Trump or anything else. I've heard so many people call voters idiots, uneducated, sheep, traitors, people saying they hate this country. This is the sort of message that leads to these sort of results. By flinging insults all you're doing is solidifying that they'll never vote with you again.

    People aren't dumb for voting for anyone. These are people with their own lives and concerns.

    As I said last night, I'm relieved by the result in a way. We have a majority government and for the first time it looks like we might be able to move forward. We aren't a paralysed country waiting for some magic solution to a mathematical impossibility anymore.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Very true. Spend 3 years telling people they didn’t know what they were voting for in the referrendum, well what a surprise there’s still a lot of passionate leave supporters.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    As soon as we can get this whole Brexit crap out of the way, the sooner we'll see what this government really will do for the people that voted them in. My only annoyance about this election is the fact that many people voted based on getting Brexit done, rather than what would happen in the remaining 4 years pfft.
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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baldrick View Post
    As soon as we can get this whole Brexit crap out of the way, the sooner we'll see what this government really will do for the people that voted them in. My only annoyance about this election is the fact that many people voted based on getting Brexit done, rather than what would happen in the remaining 4 years pfft.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Two things on this point. The Labour manifesto was more radical this time than in 2017 and a further shift to the left.

    Secondly, even with a leave manifesto, socialist policies, and up against the least charismatic leader in the country's post-war history - Labour still didn't win or even come close to a majority. May barely even campaigned for most of 2017 and still won more seats than the energised Labour movement. Love him or gate him, Boris is far more charismatic and a better campaigner than May was.

    There's an appetite for socialism but nothing that will win an election anytime soon because that's not the economy Britain would vote for. Tonight's results of remain constituents that are still showing Labour loss of votes show that it's the policies and direction that have also been rejected, not just their Brexit stance.




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    Valid points but I fail to see the argument that Labour needs to be centrist or re align when LD were clearly the centrist option in this election and still didn't do nearly as well as they should have. They increased vote share and all but alot of that will have come from staunch remainers. LD vote sharing increasing in remain constituencies back this up, surely? Labour didn't have a position so Leave and Remainers who view Brexit as THE issue were going to split to Tory or LD. The Tory vote has mostly increased in Leave voting areas for a reason.

    I really do think Labour being on the fence is what has undone them here and not their policies because - as stated - socialist policies did well for them in 17. This isn't an issue of socialism. The issue was clearly the man behind it and Brexit. It was the same in 17 as well imo.

    You take Corbyn out and replace him with say... Keir Starmer and they probably do much better. I am pretty sure I've seen opinion polls show that Labour's policies were less decisive than Brexit and Corbyn in the election.

    A Labour lurch to the centre once more will not solve anything for them - if people didn't flock to the LDs then I heavily doubt people flock back to Labour for re aligning. A better leader who can galvanize and unite the population is what they need. It would help if the party appeared united too.


    Remove the Brexit issue in this election and Corbyn's baggage and Labour fare so much better imo. It's not the policies that were the major factor.

    People were rejecting the idea of Corbyn as PM and were choosing the parties that they knew what they'd be getting by choosing. SNP for the Scottish Nationalists who are done with Westminster's shit, Lib Dem for the remainers, Tory for the Leavers and Scottish unionists. Labour are left with little to pick at.



    I look forward to the yoons saying Sturgeon has no mandate despite winning the 3rd GE in a row up here. It's clear something's gotta give. I don't know if IndyRef is the right answer but people are absolutely not putting up with BoJo for five years here. And certainly not if we are taken out of the EU or involved in negotiations. No way.


    Another thing to point out - the Unionists in Ireland have lost too. The occupied counties and the free ones may be getting the band back together sooner rather than later. Scotland will have EU backing for indy moreso than ever this time too. This looks so bad for the UK staying together. People are starting to see it doesn't work anymore.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 12-13-2019 at 01:25 PM.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Lib Dems didn't do much because their campaign was terrible, and they've been a low energy party since after 2010 (outside of a jump in the EU elections this year). They're also solidly a third choice vote and still seen as a wasted vote in a lot of places thanks to the system of voting.

    They still increased their % share of the votes more than any other party, while Labour lost by far the biggest share of their votes.

    Yes some left wing policies are popular, the NHS is a prime example. But too much will be rejected. You can try and justify this as a Brexit vote, or people not liking Corbyn, but Labour lost votes in remain seats too. They had their worst election since the war. Even worse than Michael Foot (the last Labour politician to go as far left as Corbyn did).

    As someone said, there's only been one Labour PM in decades, and that was on a centrist/centre left platform.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    I think there is a clear difference between the appetite for increased spending on vital public services and higher taxation on the top end earners, and the appetite for socialism.

    Part of the feedback that is being posted around now is that Labour's manifesto simply tried to do too much, which is what some of us said in the thread. Even John Lansman has come out and said in hindsight it was more of a 10 year plan than a Government manifesto.

    On the subject of which, I took a lot of pleasure in seeing Alan Johnson absolutely tear him and Momentum a new one. Good riddance.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    I think we're overstating the importance of "isms" for most of the electorate. Most will be asking a) do I understand what you stand for? b) do I agree with you? c) do I agree with the order of your priorities? d) do you understand my concerns? e) do I trust you to deliver what you say? f) Do I like you?

    It then becomes a decision based on how many of those 6 things a party can offer. It'll never be all six (I don't think the majority of people actually like Boris, for instance, and I don't know how many trust him either), but for a huge, huge portion of people, Corbyn failed on all six fronts.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Labour need a strong and likeable leader that will be left of central that is the only way they'll grow as a party again. That's enough political talk for now.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Lib Dems didn't do much because their campaign was terrible, and they've been a low energy party since after 2010 (outside of a jump in the EU elections this year). They're also solidly a third choice vote and still seen as a wasted vote in a lot of places thanks to the system of voting.

    They still increased their % share of the votes more than any other party, while Labour lost by far the biggest share of their votes.

    Yes some left wing policies are popular, the NHS is a prime example. But too much will be rejected. You can try and justify this as a Brexit vote, or people not liking Corbyn, but Labour lost votes in remain seats too. They had their worst election since the war. Even worse than Michael Foot (the last Labour politician to go as far left as Corbyn did).

    As someone said, there's only been one Labour PM in decades, and that was on a centrist/centre left platform.

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    Labour lost a lot of ground to the Lib Dems and Greens in the european elections and obviously backed the 2nd ref to try and get remainers back. This obviously pissed their Leavers off to a huge degree. That's on Corbyn and not their policies. Regarding losing votes in remain areas, yes, some will have preferred the centrist LDs but I bet alot of that came down to Corbyn unlikability (not being trusted re Brexit) as well as LDs being the clear remain party. No doubt the left leaning policies played a part but I really do not think this election is an overwhelming rejection of those policies so much as it is a condemnation of Corbyn and a vote to leave the EU. That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    I think there is a clear difference between the appetite for increased spending on vital public services and higher taxation on the top end earners, and the appetite for socialism.

    Part of the feedback that is being posted around now is that Labour's manifesto simply tried to do too much, which is what some of us said in the thread. Even John Lansman has come out and said in hindsight it was more of a 10 year plan than a Government manifesto.

    On the subject of which, I took a lot of pleasure in seeing Alan Johnson absolutely tear him and Momentum a new one. Good riddance.
    I do agree that it was trying to do too much too soon. But do you think the minds of people would have changed if this was stretched over a 10-15 year plan?

    Regarding a difference between socialism and increased spending on public services and higher taxes etc... this is fine but whenever someone even begins to suggest higher taxes for higher earners, they are almost certain to be tagged as a socialist and communist. I suppose it just backs up how steeped Britain is in centre-right leaning politics. I guess I just struggle to fathom why people would vote for a party that has imposed austerity and consistently targets public services with cuts as well as the vulnerable etc. Maybe I'm just in denial at this point in time and not really willing to believe people would genuinely vote for that.

    I'll continue to think that this has mostly happened due to Corbyn not having the best public opinion + Brexit though. I suppose I am quite skewed as I generally am surrounded by people with socialistic tendencies and Glasgow in general is quite left-leaning.


    Let's all agree that it's good Nigel Dodds got papped out on his arse last night.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 12-13-2019 at 02:25 PM.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Without defending austerity and the cuts, every major party in 2010 ran on a manifesto of austerity including Brown's Labour. The problem is that post-coalitian Conservatives went to far with it.

    It's easy to batter the Tories for austerity and in many cases rightly so. But at the same time it was a necessity coming out of the global financial crisis.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Without defending austerity and the cuts, every major party in 2010 ran on a manifesto of austerity including Brown's Labour. The problem is that post-coalitian Conservatives went to far with it.

    It's easy to batter the Tories for austerity and in many cases rightly so. But at the same time it was a necessity coming out of the global financial crisis.

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    Wasn't this essentially my point about not fathoming why people would vote for this?

    It's no secret that cuts are likely to continue and austerity policies too. I see no reason why the Tories would change anything since people keep voting them in on the back of it. If people are rejecting Labour's policies then Tories are likely to take that as a sign that it's ok to keep going.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Call me naive, but I kind of believe Boris when he has talked today about repaying the faith of former Labour voters. Let's face it, this is a once in a lifetime chance for the Tories to take some seats that weren't feasible even five years ago. If they can invest in the NHS, education and police like they've said, they could wipe out the biggest Labour strongholds and make them even harder to beat in the future. Investment seems a small price to pay to guarantee the next few elections.

    Plus, the Tories have had scapegoats at each point of the last ten years. The lib dems, the hung parliament, the last labour government. With this win and the fresh start Brexit offers, there's no scapegoat anymore.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Call me naive, but I kind of believe Boris when he has talked today about repaying the faith of former Labour voters. Let's face it, this is a once in a lifetime chance for the Tories to take some seats that weren't feasible even five years ago. If they can invest in the NHS, education and police like they've said, they could wipe out the biggest Labour strongholds and make them even harder to beat in the future. Investment seems a small price to pay to guarantee the next few elections.

    Plus, the Tories have had scapegoats at each point of the last ten years. The lib dems, the hung parliament, the last labour government. With this win and the fresh start Brexit offers, there's no scapegoat anymore.

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    I do think there was a sense of honesty there but maybe I'm just too burnt from the fact that Cameron, Cleggy Weggy and Brown/Milliband went back to business as usual after IndyRef despite appearing 'honest' during those campaigns too. None of the main three parties carry much weight with me anymore after that. It's why I detest Swinson and her crocodile tears so much. She's not sorry for the austerity she imposed on us, she's sorry that the people haven't forgiven her for it and that she's been fucked by it.

    Regardless, I think investing these things is fair but also slightly misleading because they're to blame for the issues these services face in the first place. I personally find it utterly disgusting that Kensington has elected a Tory MP after the Grenfell incident for example. No matter which way you spin it, it's an utter failure on their part. There are too many 'nasties' in amongst the Tory party for me to think they're all going to suddenly be nicey nice and pander to the many. Patel, Rees-Mogg as two prime examples. Plus, we don't even know how Brexit is going to shake out and how the trade deals are going to work. There might not even be a NHS to invest in. No need if you're making big bank from epi pens costing 500 quid.

    I am fairly certain the Tories will find a new scapegoat eventually.

    I won't buy into anything until foodbank use and child poverty decreases in this supposed first world country. I don't care what anyone thinks about policies etc but the fact is that these things have increased under Tory rule with no sign of going away. They have defended it and shown no appetite to rectify it. You have Tory ministers saying 'foodbanks are necessary' as a response. Fair enough, I get the point... but not when there are more foodbanks than McDonald's here. That's unbelievable.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 12-13-2019 at 04:36 PM.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    You won't get any argument from me there. The Tories have been a disaster for years and I want to see the mess they caused cleaned up.

    I can't see myself ever fully trusting them, nor can I ever see them getting my vote for the reasons you've just mentioned.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Very interesting to see the demographic breakdown of the votes.

    Not surprised that Labour would've strolled it if it was 18-54 year olds voting and that the vote was lost with 55+ year olds essentially. I know people tend to lean conservative as they get older though but I really don't see that happening with this generation of younger people. If Labour can keep this level of support with that age group then and invest in themselves as a long term project then it will bear fruit in 10 years' time. Less and less younger people are being engaged with the Tories and that's going to bite them in the ass in the long run.

    Also says to me that Labour's policies CAN be viable and win an election in the future. But a lurch to centrism will obviously win back alot of older voters.

    Tories winning the votes (solely vs Labour, not overall) in all the employment demos is certainly worrisome though. I guess Labour will have won a lot of votes from the unemployed though. Tories did better with C1 and C2 class voters than they did AB... which is surprising. Really does seem like Labour might be seen to be the party of the unemployed rather than working class anymore. Either that or the working class don't realise they are the working class.

    Interesting breakdowns. SNP extremely consistent in every demographic is a good sign.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainshaker
    I know people tend to lean conservative as they get older though but I really don't see that happening with this generation of younger people
    My dad was a huge Thatcher bashing labour supporter, as long as I can remember his hatred for the Tories was strong and obvious for how they screwed over working class people in the 80s. Thursday he voted Tory for the first time in his life a few weeks after his 60th birthday. 30 years is a long time, it's impossible to say there won't come a point where our political beliefs change and Tories become the tempting vote when their policies are more in line with the older voter.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    My dad was a huge Thatcher bashing labour supporter, as long as I can remember his hatred for the Tories was strong and obvious for how they screwed over working class people in the 80s. Thursday he voted Tory for the first time in his life a few weeks after his 60th birthday. 30 years is a long time, it's impossible to say there won't come a point where our political beliefs change and Tories become the tempting vote when their policies are more in line with the older voter.
    Sorry to hear that mate.

    You're right though. It's not a given by any means certainly and I don't know what the breakdown was for voting in the 80s - it may have been the same. I just don't see the Tory party, in this current iteration, being capable of winning those younger voters over in 15-20-30 years time unless something changes about those voters or the party. But I am sure that was the prevailing thought back then too so who knows?


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    It's easy to say Labour win voters with younger people, but narrowing it down to people of 55 and younger cuts off 30% of your voting population in the UK. Not to mention that older people are far more likely to actually turn out to vote, and people are living longer so they will stick around for a long time yet.

    Putting your trust in the younger generation to vote isn't a strategy that works. For starters, they historically don't vote in most elections across the entire world compared to older people. Conservatives always vote. Secondly, as you mentioned, people shift to a more conservative belief as they get older, always have. Hell, I'm only 28 and I have gone from being a naive "yeah take from the rich to give to the poor" economically left thinker to being far more conservative economically just since I left university. Plus I do think that targeting young voters has contributed to the alienation of the working class Labour vote. The Tories have a great opportunity take that working class vote that has felt betrayed by Labour, if they can be successful in government.





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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...david-miliband

    Really interesting insight by David Milliband about why Labour lost. He says that the culture of Labour of seeing victories in election defeats shows a lack of acknowledgement about why they failed. Brexit was obviously a factor as was the leadership. But he also explains that the more radical changes you propose in a manifesto means you have to more credible, and people are far more likely to reject your policies.

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