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Thread: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

  1. #41
    Mr. Victory Through Guts

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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed
    I disagree still with the claim Ishimori was the only one with some buzz in the first two nights, Ospreay was still over with the crowds. Plus haven't attendances been really good for this tour? I know they were selling out K. Hall at the start of the tour with no heavyweight support like in most years, I think that's a positive for the division that doesn't deserve to be dragged down with talk of no-ones a star in this division.
    It's true that Ospreay's style has gotten over but in the big picture I don't see anybody that is a true difference maker. Just like I said before, if he left at the end of this tournament it wouldn't make a difference, same for Hiromu, Ishimori, whatever, and the brand played a bigger role than any one person for the K-Hall shows. I'm not taking a shot at Will btw. He's a foreigner and the booking has been more to blame than anything. It just is what it is.

    RE: Ospreay WOTY - I have to admit, in his defense. It's hard to blame him with this bunch. Just like Ishimori & ACH, they're doing their best in tbere. I'm not convinced ZSJ would have done way better than these guys. Nobody can have a good match with Kanemaru, that BUSHI match wasn't gonna be good no matter who was in there because of how it was laid out. I think the Yoh match was solid, not as great as you, about in line with every Yoh match. I don't consider him a WOTYC, but he's had a strong last 2 months and I don't think this tournament really impacted him positive or negative, because I agree with your point about WALTER & ZSJ compared to him, but I thought that already. So I guess if I thought he was one of BITW I'd be disappointed, but in PTR+ (my tournament algorithm where I try to be unbiased & scientific) Ospreay has my highest rating in Block A. I give him slight props. Although I'd still pick Ishimori as the best of A Block, he's done a great job with this new heel gimmick too and it's a tough position considering how much steam he lost. Also as for Lanza, I wouldn't be surprised if VOW put him over as having a great great tournament anyway.

    I hope Hiromu wins the tournament, at least the block anyways. He's been the MVP so far and has had the high end matches, the Desperado match being #1. If my memory serves me right he also has Sho and Kushida left to go so there's no way he's not adding two more good matches to his resume. I think he's main evented more shows than anyone else in his block so it feels like they are getting behind him in the tournament again.

    I really enjoyed Sho/Kushida too for a match that had a different feel to anything else on the tournament, so I'd swap Kushida with Sabin in terms of your top 4 performers Zero and then we'd be matching. Lee, Hiromu and Sho have all been ace.
    I love Hiromu. But I still contend he doesn't have what he did a year ago. He's been a strong MVP candidate & him winning feels like the most deserving thing though so I definitely am not arguing it though. I see a lot of people say Sho/KUSHIDA was this wildly different match but I don't understand why because Sabin/KUSHIDA & Sabin/Sho were both great technical wrestling matches too, maybe not all on the mat as much but it's not like they were this huge departure in style from each other. I rated all 3 the same & it's a tossup between the Sho matches which I thought was best.

    The problem with KUSHIDA is he just hasn't been as consistent due to booking. When he's on I have liked him though. Sabin's been strong in every match. But considering who they're facing last two nights it'll probably even. My ratings for each thus far:

    Sabin:
    vs KUSHIDA: ***3/4
    vs Sho: ***3/4
    vs Scurll: ***
    vs Lee: ***1/2
    vs Hiromu: ****

    KUSHIDA:
    vs Sabin: ***3/4
    vs Scurll: ***
    vs Taguchi: N/A
    vs Sho: ***3/4
    vs Desperado: **1/2

    Quote Originally Posted by Shake
    Did those guys go undefeated through BOSJ too and not lose to anyone? I remember Devitt went undefeated but how long did that take him? It takes time to build these dudes. Hiromu's got a long time ahead of him so why can't they take a little longer with it? He's a top dude, clearly. He's over, clearly. He's super over despite his booking and it's clear he will get a big moment eventually. I really don't get why you just focus on the short term and think these guys are being knocked down pegs when you don't know where they're going with the booking. So idk. I dunno what NJPW are missing out on if they can create a bigger buzz down the line. I think if Hiromu wins BOSJ it'll be a feel good moment. And then wins the belt. Would be pretty cool.
    It's not about the going undefeated (Although actually I'm pretty sure Liger & Kanemoto did go undefeated or at worst lost one match), it's about making stars and yes feel special when you have the chance. Ishimori losing to Flip & Kanemaru solidifies him as just another Jr. the same way Hiromu's tournament last year did. Ishimori could have dropped a fall to someone, but it needed to be special & in a way that built to something. Him losing to Flip & Kanemaru isn't a storyline, it's just to have him lose to balance out the standings. Because he isn't worth any special treatment. And what are you on about short term focus? I knew last year what Hiromu's tournament meant, & lo & behold he lost the title & the rest of the year he was the joke of company getting embarrassed by foreigners that died in their biggest match when it should have been him. Actually you're projecting yourself on me, because I'm focusing on the last year & the next year in the future. You're acting like him winning makes 2017 okay & it didn't matter. It did matter & him winning won't undo all that damage. I still want it though, he's the best wrestler in this company. (I might say of either division) He is over. Taguchi's over too. So's Ospreay. Big picture? Not difference makers, and all the Juniors bleed into each other. Just look at this tournament. 50/50 booking all the way through and not a single person stood out. It's bad booking when WWE and others do it, & it's bad when NJPW does it so why is it that surprising that things turn out how they do? The buzz if he wins won't be as big as it was last year. There's absolutely no way. It's like if Kenou wins the title again in NOAH, it won't be as successful as the first time, catching lightning in a bottle twice is almost impossible.

    Also Devitt going undefeated got him a World Title shot one month later and was largely successful, though I thought it totally sucked.

    I think Ospreay is currently a bigger needle mover than Ishimori tbh with you. Despite how vocal Ospreay is... he's slightly more charismatic.
    Ishimori's making a completely different character work than he's done his whole career and I think he deserves props. Ospreay's charismatic though. I understand liking Ospreay better in terms of talent, but in terms of needle moving, when Ishimori jumped over he got more coverage than Ospreay ever has for anything he's done in NJPW. After this tournament? Maybe it's Ospreay because he's the champion, but Ishimori's the same story. If he left it wouldn't make a difference in the big picture. I wish Ishimori would bring back the yellow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky
    Can’t believe Flips had a more watchable tournament than Marty.
    I think you can easily make the case Scurll's been the worst wrestler in this tournament. I'd pick Kanemaru though. Flip's been ok.
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  2. #42
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    How long were they in the company for before doing that, though? I don't think there's some requirement to make them feel THAT special - especially because Ishimori's only been in the company for a second. It's not like they can't book him as something special down the line like Devitt. Same for Hiromu. And maybe he isn't worth any special treatment in the first place. He's got coverage because he jumped ship, not because he's Ishimori. It would happen to anyone and it'd fizzle out. It's clear Ishimori still lacks enough charisma - especially on the mic. Wouldn't Ishimori making finals be a big enough statement regardless of who he loses to on the way? That's my point about focusing on the short term. The losses mean nothing and don't damage him. It doesn't stop him from being built up in future into something special. RE Hiromu winning BOSJ and fixing 2017 - well, I'd say that Hiromu's first title run was about providing KUSHIDA a rival and giving KUSHIDA a redemption story. I enjoyed that so I can't say I care much for calling the booking bad or thinking Hiromu's damaged. The redemption KUSHIDA story wouldn't have been possible otherwise. And that directly played into Ospreay finally beating him too. Not possible if Hiromu was still champion. Like I said, I would consider Hiromu's booking over the last year if he wins to be a part of the larger story they are telling with him. How can I call him damaged when he's a) still massively over and b) still supplying the goods by being great in the ring and an engaging personality outside of it? Like I said with Ishimori, it'll take time and for all you know Hiromu could be built into something special. Just don't think NJPW have botched the booking of these guys as badly as you seem to think, if at all. It's the same with Naito's WK booking - seems bad on the surface but enabled a well told storyline for someone else (Okada). I've been confident throughout the last year that Hiromu's moment is coming. They didn't do it last year for reasons above. There's no reason why they can't do it this year especially given his booking over the last few months. If he doesn't win this BOSJ, I will likely hold my hands up and say I'm disappointed.

    RE Ishimori's Kanemaru loss - why no props to Gedo for keeping NOAH kayfabe alive? Ishimori's never beaten Kanemaru one on one. Hope you don't have a meltdown on Ishimori if he doesn't win his block, dawg.

    fyi I like Ishimori and agree the yellow should come back but I guess they want to make him more edgy. The issue was, at first, the crowd seemed to treat him like yellow Ishimori rather than BC Ishimori.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 06-02-2018 at 05:31 AM.


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  3. #43
    Mr. Victory Through Guts

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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    How long were they in the company for before doing that, though?
    A good amount of time, but it was different because the division was still in a good place at the time and getting people to the next level wasn't an issue. This deal with Ishimori is a bit of uncharted territory anyway, the way he jumped.

    don't think there's some requirement to make them feel THAT special - especially because Ishimori's only been in the company for a second. It's not like they can't book him as something special down the line like Devitt. Same for Hiromu.
    Of course there isn't a requirement. They've buried the division so much, never mind if one of these guys left, if they scrapped the entire division it wouldn't make any difference business-wise. But if your goal is to rebuild things to make the Juniors as prominent as they used to be which is where I'm coming from and the standard I'm holding them to, then you have to accept that you have to at least try with someone.

    And maybe he isn't worth any special treatment in the first place. He's got coverage because he jumped ship, not because he's Ishimori. It would happen to anyone and it'd fizzle out. It's clear Ishimori still lacks enough charisma - especially on the mic.
    He deserves it because he got it. I never argued differently that it was because of him jumping ship and have put that over all along as the reason why but that's at least something. These other guys are just guys. Some great, some not, but no upside to make a difference. I'm not even saying he would surefire turn it around but why can't you at least take a guy who has something and TRY. What they've done is treat him the same as anyone else. Maybe he'll win. But then he's just a top guy in a sea of just guys. Also he was a good promo in NOAH IDK what you're talking about, he was the one who took over for KENTA when he moved up and carried the division well. This Bone Soldier stuff hasn't done him any favors but it's not like he's tanked out there.

    Wouldn't Ishimori making finals be a big enough statement regardless of who he loses to on the way? That's my point about focusing on the short term. The losses mean nothing and don't damage him. It doesn't stop him from being built up in future into something special.
    My only response to this idea that it doesn't do damage is look at him in his first two matches and look at him against ACH and tell me there's no difference.

    RE Hiromu winning BOSJ and fixing 2017 - well, I'd say that Hiromu's first title run was about providing KUSHIDA a rival and giving KUSHIDA a redemption story. I enjoyed that so I can't say I care much for calling the booking bad or thinking Hiromu's damaged. The redemption KUSHIDA story wouldn't have been possible otherwise. And that directly played into Ospreay finally beating him too. Not possible if Hiromu was still champion. Like I said, I would consider Hiromu's booking over the last year if he wins to be a part of the larger story they are telling with him.
    And KUSHIDA had a whack title reign that totally flopped just like his first 5 did because he isn't that popular outside of the West. Even so, did all that necessitate Hiromu getting One Punch Man'd by Ospreay? Embarrassed by Scurll? Turned into a cat? Take the fall at the Dome? Why'd it have to be that way? Really though they already lost it in BOSJ & it's not a huge deal to his overness, but it's a deal to me because it sucked.

    How can I call him damaged when he's a) still massively over and b) still supplying the goods by being great in the ring and an engaging personality outside of it? Like I said with Ishimori, it'll take time and for all you know Hiromu could be built into something special.
    All that stuff is true but just like I said, look at him early last year compared to now. And I know that that's not gonna happen because they don't book their top stars and people they want to be special this way. And why would they? It would be stupid to give Okada a year like they did Hiromu. Just like it was stupid to give Hiromu that year.

    Just don't think NJPW have botched the booking of these guys as badly as you seem to think, if at all. It's the same with Naito's WK booking - seems bad on the surface but enabled a well told storyline for someone else (Okada). I've been confident throughout the last year that Hiromu's moment is coming. They didn't do it last year for reasons above. There's no reason why they can't do it this year especially given his booking over the last few months. If he doesn't win this BOSJ, I will likely hold my hands up and say I'm disappointed.
    Naito ultimately is a different situation because the Dome was NJPW's choice between Naito being the top hot star and fighting the fans and pushing Okada as the greatest World Champion of all time and they made their choice. I'll never be called Okada's biggest fan, but this may surprise you: I think Okada is a better worker than Naito overall and I love how they've booked him as champion so this is not me being biased. I think it's great, even if he would not be that choice for me and I think the booking elevated an okay wrestler and made him a star purely because of Gedo's doing more than him himself. I wish they treated Hiromu like him. However, the main problem with Naito's booking and why I think it was wrong is what I have been on about. Okada has never and will never be as over as Naito was going into the Dome. And now because they blew their load on Okada, Naito won't ever be as over as he was that night again. So even if they turn it around and he wins at the Dome next year, it won't be as good as last year so what good is it really? Same with Hiromu. Sure him winning this year would be nice but compared to last year? It's just not the same.

    RE Ishimori's Kanemaru loss - why no props to Gedo for keeping NOAH kayfabe alive? Ishimori's never beaten Kanemaru one on one. Hope you don't have a meltdown on Ishimori if he doesn't win his block, dawg.
    I don't care if Ishimori wins or not. I hyped him because I was thinking of the best thing for the division as a whole. It doesn't matter anymore because they blew it already. Will's been a good champion although him winning would be a bit boring but I have no problem. If we were just going by personal favorites I want Hiromu would win.
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  4. #44
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    BOSJ Day Thirteen 03/06/18


    Tiger Mask vs ACH: **¾
    Solid match, lots of face paced action with a decent ending stretch

    BUSHI vs Yoshinobu Kanemaru : ***¼
    Another good match. Kanemaru was definitely more motivated for this match with it being in K-Hall and it showed. Everything was more impactful, looked better, it looked like a match. BUSHI did pretty well as a babyface in the match and bounced off Kanemaru pretty well.

    Ryusuke Taguchi vs Chris Sabin: ***½
    Taguchi with another good match this tournament. Some really good near falls in this one, Taguchi working on the leg as well. Good match.

    El Desperado vs Dragon Lee: ***¾
    Very, very heated match with them trying to rip off each others masks. Perfect heel and babyface performances in this match. Dragon Lee entertaining the crowd with his athletic ability, Despite being sneaky.

    Will Ospreay vs Flip Gordon: **½
    Okay match. Better than I expected. It dragged though. Liked the ending but that’s really it.

    Yoh vs Taiji Ishimori: ***½
    Took a while to get going but when it go going, it was pretty good. Ishimori character work was pretty good, very methodical, slow when working over Yoh. Yoh played the underdog babyface well. Hated him doing Rollins shitty looking superplex into the falcon arrow move. Other than that, good.

    Sho vs Marty Scurll: ***½
    Some lovely work by both. Scurll was more serious in this match and his work on the fingers was great. Very vicious. He should do this more.

    KUSHIDA vs Hiromu Takahashi: ***
    This match was weird. It was good but nowhere near as good as it should’ve been. They sent 10 minutes doing a lock up doing the equally matched spot, which could’ve been much, much shorter. It just felt like filler and then the last 10 minutes were good but lack that special something to make it better than just solid. Disappointing match considering their previous matches. Ishimori vs Hiromu finals though!!!!!
    Spoiler:


    Milano Forever!

  5. #45
    Mr. Victory Through Guts

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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    To me, and maybe it's just because I watched that awful AAA show last night, but the BOSJ Final was the NJPW MOTY & a big step up from last year. It's obvious who the best two Jrs. in this company are after that performance. If I'm booking Hiromu wins the title & he keeps it until the Dome until they finally have a rematch & Ishimori can take it.
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  6. #46
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Loved the finals, I wouldn't say that it's MOTYC right now. I would have to watch it again, was on my phone watching it the first time so some of atmosphere was missing for me. Definitely Match of the tournament.

    Ishimori desperately needed that match. He was underperforming for most of the tournament imo and this not only gave him that big match he needed but looked great in defeat also.

    Hopefully they don't continue this Ospreay reign and go with Takahashi as champion for a while.
    Spoiler:


    Milano Forever!

  7. #47
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    It doesn't win out Jericho/Omega for me, but it's right up there as the NJPW MOTY and certainly the best match of the entire tournament. I am so fucking happy that Hiromu won the final because he deserved it, MVP of the whole tour and listening to the crowd, he's the star right now, not Taiji who was ok but not on fire. Both were great in the final though. That little spell where he was wrapped up in the crossface for ages struggling to get to the ropes was very dramatic. The only worry I have now is that BOSJ still set up Ospreay/Ishimori with bone soldier getting the win in the group, but they surely have to have Hiromu win the title after all this.

    Haven't seen Day 13 yet, gotta watch that tonight, but wanted to see this one unspoiled first. Watched the semi-main tag too, the Ospreay/Ibushi exchanges are dope and Owens was really good.

  8. #48
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Right, okay. I just rewatched this and I can safely say that it's in my top 3 NJPW matches of the year (Just missed out on the Top 5 Overall). It was incredible. Like I said eariler, Ishimori had an average BOSJ’s and he desperately needed a that great match in New Japan and he just did that. I loved Ishimori’s performance in the match. I really like that he wrestles that slower, more methodical technical style which is a very underrated aspect of his game, imo. Makes more sense given that he is a heel and allowed Hiromu to play a babyface, a role that he thrived in and it lead to a great face vs heel match up rather than just another move for move finals like previous years (not that I’m complaining or anything). But what put it over the top was Ishimori’s facial expressions for me. It turned good heel work to great heel work. Just lovely.

    Hiromu Takahashi was amazing as well. The way the crowd responded to him was something special. That runway drop kick was awesome to see, even after seeing it in the El Desperado match as well. . Such incredible bumps all match, really putting this match over the top. The only criticism I would give is that he didn’t sell the arm as much as I would’ve liked after that Yes Lock spot, but I’ll forgive it as he sold it after the match. Immense match.
    Spoiler:


    Milano Forever!

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