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Thread: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

  1. #21
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    Well Ishimori would of had to of lost a match somewhere to make final night interesting as he'd already beaten Ospreay and Ospreay isn't finishing lower than 2nd in his block. Is Flip really that bad of a choice to beat him? Tiger Mask and Kanemura beating him achieves nothing because they're on the tailend of their career, he's already faced BUSHI, I think ACH is just a spot filler, he doesn't work ROH and he won't be back again until the Jr tag tournament so I don't think that's a wise pick either. Yoh is legitimately the only choice who might of made more sense. Flip is someone who will be in future BOSJ tournaments and probably will get a title shot at some point in the future given the ROH connections, doesn't seem that bad a result in all honesty.

    If you want to argue that maybe the Ospreay match should of been a draw, and Ishimori goes 6-0-1 and Ospreay loses (or draws again) on the final night so Ishimori can get into the final and win the tournament without dropping a fall to really push him hard....ok I think that would of been fine. But once he beats Ospreay he has to lose somewhere else.

    I haven't watched this show yet so I can't comment on quality of matches.
    Flip isn't very good and more importantly is a foreigner. There's no reason to take Ishimori down pegs when he is the only one that hasn't been taken down. Losing to Flip ensures he's just another Junior, the same way last year Hiromu's losses crippled his upside. Now even if Hiromu went undefeated he'll never be what he would have been. I can't say for sure, but I would bet Ishimori won't even be special by the end of this tournament. The idea that NJPW should even consider a nothing company like ROH's best interests in their booking is just a ridiculous statement. If it were me, I would never put these lackluster ROH talents like Flip and worse, Hangman Page over because he makes the company look low rent. (Even though I don't think Flip is THAT bad especially compared to Kanemaru) I don't buy that Flip is a good choice at all (or really anyone because as I said in the other thread, everyone else has been booked to be forgettable and not special, even Yoh & Sho.
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    He's lost one match, dawg.


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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Remember, this is the New Japan that had Flip Gordon win the triple threat match with Kushida/Takahashi. Flip winning doesn't surprise me one bit. For whatever reason, they clearly like him, that and the ROH deal, I can see why they had him win from their point of view but in my opinion, someone like Yoh would be a better choice to give Ishimori his loss. One, it's their own talent and two, it would be a continuation of the CHAOS vs Bullet Club feud. Either way, it's not the end of the world as it's only won loss.
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    Remember, this is the New Japan that had Flip Gordon win the triple threat match with Kushida/Takahashi. Flip winning doesn't surprise me one bit. For whatever reason, they clearly like him, that and the ROH deal, I can see why they had him win from their point of view but in my opinion, someone like Yoh would be a better choice to give Ishimori his loss. One, it's their own talent and two, it would be a continuation of the CHAOS vs Bullet Club feud. Either way, it's not the end of the world as it's only won loss.
    Yoh can still beat Ishimori though?


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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    Yoh can still beat Ishimori though?
    You're right, but if we are talking about who gives Ishimori his first loss, I would've prefer it to be Yoh (or maybe BUSHI instead) over Flip Gordon for the reasons I said. But ultimately, it doesn't matter and won't affect Ishimori too much as long as his booking throughout the rest of the BOSJ is good which it will.


    Edit: Okay, not BUSHI I forgot about his singles record.
    Last edited by MC 16; 05-25-2018 at 07:37 PM.
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    You're right, but if we are talking about who gives Ishimori his first loss, I would've prefer it to be Yoh (or maybe BUSHI instead) over Flip Gordon for the reasons I said. But ultimately it doesn't matter.

    It really doesn't. It's just a loss so that the block's closer and is probably a loss that isn't very damaging at all. It would likely mean so much more if it was out of the tournament. But Ishimori's not going to look any worse come tournament end than he did going into it, imo. He pretty much has to be a lock for the finals unless someone else beats Ospreay. Not like anyone's gonna think less of him unless you're super focused on short term inconsequential booking.


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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    This Isn't the exact same nonsense I heard after Hiromu lost. And everyone who said it didn't matter was wrong then and will be again with Ishimori. It's not about the loss, it's what it signifies. He's just another Junior, not a star to them.
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    This Isn't the exact same nonsense I heard after Hiromu lost. And everyone who said it didn't matter was wrong then and will be again with Ishimori. It's not about the loss, it's what it signifies. He's just another Junior, not a star to them.
    To who? Flip? Hiromu's still over by my reckoning and is still on for a redemption story that's been built ever since he lost the plot after losing the belt. And yeah... I thought that was obvious with Ishimori. Did you think they were going to book him like some sort of Junior Ace? THAT would be a major risk. It's not bad booking just because it doesn't suit your personal tastes. It's just booking you don't enjoy. There's a difference. There's no point in booking Ishimori as some sort of star when he hasn't proven anything yet.

    They're hardly going to try and make the Junior belt/division more special than the main drawing Heavyweight division. THAT would be bad booking if you made your Junior title be on a par with Intercontinental/Heavyweight. In my opinion.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 05-25-2018 at 08:00 PM.


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  9. #29
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Flip isn't very good and more importantly is a foreigner. There's no reason to take Ishimori down pegs when he is the only one that hasn't been taken down. Losing to Flip ensures he's just another Junior, the same way last year Hiromu's losses crippled his upside. Now even if Hiromu went undefeated he'll never be what he would have been. I can't say for sure, but I would bet Ishimori won't even be special by the end of this tournament. The idea that NJPW should even consider a nothing company like ROH's best interests in their booking is just a ridiculous statement. If it were me, I would never put these lackluster ROH talents like Flip and worse, Hangman Page over because he makes the company look low rent. (Even though I don't think Flip is THAT bad especially compared to Kanemaru) I don't buy that Flip is a good choice at all (or really anyone because as I said in the other thread, everyone else has been booked to be forgettable and not special, even Yoh & Sho.
    I'm not disputing that Flip is bad

    You've watched Japanese wrestling enough to know that it's unlikely that anyone wins all their matches in block tournament. Once Ishimori beat Ospreay you had to know he would lose to someone else otherwise it can't go to the final day. I don't understand the outrage here.

    If you believe the only reason Ishimori won't be special after this tournament is because Flip Gordon shocked him with a surprise roll up on Day 5, then really how special was he ever going to be? This is a forgettable show and if Ishimori has the trophy in his hand by the end of the tournament, that will be the lasting legacy of the BOSJ. Debuting the guy as bone fucking solider with a silly mask and as a member of the bullet club with Tama Tonga doing his talking will be a bigger nail in his coffin from becoming the biggest and most respected Junior star in Japan more than losing one match to an ROH wrestler.

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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Kanemaru beat Ishimori

    I think we know whats coming (and this time I agree)

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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Hopefully there's a lesson learned from all this after today. It was never about "Ishimori lost to Flip so he can't be a star anymore". If they pushed him like a star from here on it would be fine. But what it told me, because I understand Japanese booking & the history of NJPW, is that if they viewed him as a star, you don't book your special star to lose to a middling foreigner, just like you don't book him to tie Taichi in points. It just is what it is and I knew that their days of protecting him to any logical degree were finished and it didn't take one more day for that to be confirmed.

    And now nobody in the division means anything and they'll probably have another multi-man bullshit match that Will will win & nobody will react to at the Dome next year.
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  12. #32
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    man why are they doing this to the New Japan mvp

    I still wouldn’t hit the panic button but juniors booking is juniors booking.
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    sigh, Jesus christ. Also, everyone's favourite wrestler is top of the block.
    Last edited by MC 16; 05-26-2018 at 09:12 AM.
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Hopefully there's a lesson learned from all this after today. It was never about "Ishimori lost to Flip so he can't be a star anymore". If they pushed him like a star from here on it would be fine. But what it told me, because I understand Japanese booking & the history of NJPW, is that if they viewed him as a star, you don't book your special star to lose to a middling foreigner, just like you don't book him to tie Taichi in points. It just is what it is and I knew that their days of protecting him to any logical degree were finished and it didn't take one more day for that to be confirmed.

    And now nobody in the division means anything and they'll probably have another multi-man bullshit match that Will will win & nobody will react to at the Dome next year.
    That's some epic self wankery there



    All I can say is it's BOSJ time and these things are expected. As far as I'm concerned, Ishimori isn't on a higher level in kayfabe against the vast majority of this tournament, if any. And if the booking's pissing you off so much or you can't look past it and enjoy the product for what it is then don't watch. It's not going to get any better for you, surely.


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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Was speaking the truth.

    Also I have enjoyed the tournament in-ring for the most part. Booking-wise? I don't hate it in a vacuum, and it definitely doesn't make me mad, but it's the grand scheme of things that I don't like and really justifiably so. And to expand upon the above point, the idea that Juniors booking is what it is & just will be bad is just crazy to me considering the history of NJPW where the Juniors were some of the top stars in the company. Really, you could make the case that the Three Musketeers were the top stars, but 4, 5, & 6 were Juniors & they were the X factors against AJPW. (Liger/Otani/Kanemoto) Perhaps because they treated them much better than NJPW currently does these guys. And why can't Hiromu & Ishimori be top 5 stars in NJPW? Last year definitely signaled there's no reason he couldn't be. These guys have the talent & the overness, Ospreay as well. What good is it when someone actually does have something that may be special they knock them down all these pegs?
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Best of The Super Juniors Day Six

    Marty Scurll vs Chris Sabin: ***¼
    - Pretty good match. The crowd was receptive to both which is great and they worked the match well. Scurll (and Sabin) may have had his comedy shtick in the match but this time, he kept it at the beginning of match and gradually became more serious as the match progress. Something he should've done in the KUSHIDA match.

    Ryusuke Taguchi vs KUSHIDA: NR
    - TAGUCHI!!!!!!!!!

    Sho vs El Desperado: ***¾
    - Another great match for both, especially Sho who has been awesome so far. El Desperado’s work on the leg of Sho was great, real vicious work. Sho sold it very well until the end.

    Hiromu Takahashi vs Dragon Lee: ****¼
    - Excellent match. Just like the other matches these two have had. It's almost impossible for these two to have a bad match with each other. Very smooth, crisp, lots of call backs to their previous matches. Great. Not much selling but it wasn't a problem for me as these two were awesome without it.


    I think that I'm going to skip the A Block shows from now on.
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    I think the problem with this tournament is there's been 4 performers who've really put their best foot forward & made it their own. Then a mix of inconsistent and/or mediocre performers everywhere else. Then Kanemaru who's just bad. I give ACH & Ishimori a bit of a pass in Block A because their performances have been mostly great, but the people they're wrestling just haven't stepped up. They needed that X factor that Sho, Sabin, & Lee were to B Block & Yoh just hasn't been able to come close, the rest we already knew were incapable. (Although BUSHI & Tiger haven't been bad, just average)

    I know some people don't want to hear this but I also think this BOSJ has totally justified my criticisms of Ospreay as a star in NJPW. He hasn't been a standout in the ring either if we're being honest. Ultimately everything I feared has come to pass. Ishimori was the only one with the buzz of the fans the first couple of nights, & they flushed it down the toilet. Just look at that ACH match. That wasn't even as good as

    Ishimori's match with BUSHI earlier in the tournament & ACH is much much better. The match should have been better but Ishimori doesn't have it right now. He feels cold & not inspired at all. I'd probably just roll the dice with him over Ospreay to win A Block, but it really feels like no big deal either way.

    On the other hand, Hiromu, Lee, Sho, & Sabin have had great tournaments up & down. KUSHIDA's been booked irregularly & had to deal with bad Despe but has done good too. I think if I had pick I'd go ahead & run with Sho even though it's too soon. He's the one that feels like he's building some organic buzz as the breakout star. Hiromu & Lee have been my favorites & wouldn't mind them either, but Lee's a foreigner & Hiromu would give me a headache on "what could have been?" but he really is the most deserving.

    My great (****+) matches have been:
    Ospreay/Ishimori
    Sho/Lee
    Hiromu/Despe
    Hiromu/Lee
    Hiromu/Sabin
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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    I disagree still with the claim Ishimori was the only one with some buzz in the first two nights, Ospreay was still over with the crowds. Plus haven't attendances been really good for this tour? I know they were selling out K. Hall at the start of the tour with no heavyweight support like in most years, I think that's a positive for the division that doesn't deserve to be dragged down with talk of no-ones a star in this division.

    I think what this has been is a bullet in the head of any claims for Ospreay as the wrestler of the year. I'm sure you heard Lanza's claims that it's the year of Will Ospreay because of all the good stuff he's been doing so far, but if your not in the top 6 of BOSJ performers and you're full of 3 star specials, then the claim it's your year falls flat on it's face. This was Will's chance to make big ground in that claim by trying to get something good out of a lackluster block and other than the match with Yoh which I really fucking enjoyed and have it close to a top 5 match in here, there's no other match where I feel like he's elevating the talent that's in the ring with him. It's all well and good killing it against great wrestlers, but when Walter has to work PCO and Tom Lawler, you remember it, when ZSJ has to work Chuck Mambo you remember it. These are very forgettable matches.

    I hope Hiromu wins the tournament, at least the block anyways. He's been the MVP so far and has had the high end matches, the Desperado match being #1. If my memory serves me right he also has Sho and Kushida left to go so there's no way he's not adding two more good matches to his resume. I think he's main evented more shows than anyone else in his block so it feels like they are getting behind him in the tournament again.

    I really enjoyed Sho/Kushida too for a match that had a different feel to anything else on the tournament, so I'd swap Kushida with Sabin in terms of your top 4 performers Zero and then we'd be matching. Lee, Hiromu and Sho have all been ace.

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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Was speaking the truth.

    Also I have enjoyed the tournament in-ring for the most part. Booking-wise? I don't hate it in a vacuum, and it definitely doesn't make me mad, but it's the grand scheme of things that I don't like and really justifiably so. And to expand upon the above point, the idea that Juniors booking is what it is & just will be bad is just crazy to me considering the history of NJPW where the Juniors were some of the top stars in the company. Really, you could make the case that the Three Musketeers were the top stars, but 4, 5, & 6 were Juniors & they were the X factors against AJPW. (Liger/Otani/Kanemoto) Perhaps because they treated them much better than NJPW currently does these guys. And why can't Hiromu & Ishimori be top 5 stars in NJPW? Last year definitely signaled there's no reason he couldn't be. These guys have the talent & the overness, Ospreay as well. What good is it when someone actually does have something that may be special they knock them down all these pegs?
    Did those guys go undefeated through BOSJ too and not lose to anyone? I remember Devitt went undefeated but how long did that take him? It takes time to build these dudes. Hiromu's got a long time ahead of him so why can't they take a little longer with it? He's a top dude, clearly. He's over, clearly. He's super over despite his booking and it's clear he will get a big moment eventually. I really don't get why you just focus on the short term and think these guys are being knocked down pegs when you don't know where they're going with the booking. So idk. I dunno what NJPW are missing out on if they can create a bigger buzz down the line. I think if Hiromu wins BOSJ it'll be a feel good moment. And then wins the belt. Would be pretty cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post

    Ryusuke Taguchi vs KUSHIDA: NR
    - TAGUCHI!!!!!!!!!
    This is going to bite KUSHIDA in the ass, I'm sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I think the problem with this tournament is there's been 4 performers who've really put their best foot forward & made it their own. Then a mix of inconsistent and/or mediocre performers everywhere else. Then Kanemaru who's just bad. I give ACH & Ishimori a bit of a pass in Block A because their performances have been mostly great, but the people they're wrestling just haven't stepped up. They needed that X factor that Sho, Sabin, & Lee were to B Block & Yoh just hasn't been able to come close, the rest we already knew were incapable. (Although BUSHI & Tiger haven't been bad, just average)

    I know some people don't want to hear this but I also think this BOSJ has totally justified my criticisms of Ospreay as a star in NJPW. He hasn't been a standout in the ring either if we're being honest. Ultimately everything I feared has come to pass. Ishimori was the only one with the buzz of the fans the first couple of nights, & they flushed it down the toilet. Just look at that ACH match. That wasn't even as good as

    Ishimori's match with BUSHI earlier in the tournament & ACH is much much better. The match should have been better but Ishimori doesn't have it right now. He feels cold & not inspired at all. I'd probably just roll the dice with him over Ospreay to win A Block, but it really feels like no big deal either way.

    On the other hand, Hiromu, Lee, Sho, & Sabin have had great tournaments up & down. KUSHIDA's been booked irregularly & had to deal with bad Despe but has done good too. I think if I had pick I'd go ahead & run with Sho even though it's too soon. He's the one that feels like he's building some organic buzz as the breakout star. Hiromu & Lee have been my favorites & wouldn't mind them either, but Lee's a foreigner & Hiromu would give me a headache on "what could have been?" but he really is the most deserving.

    My great (****+) matches have been:
    Ospreay/Ishimori
    Sho/Lee
    Hiromu/Despe
    Hiromu/Lee
    Hiromu/Sabin
    I think Ospreay is currently a bigger needle mover than Ishimori tbh with you. Despite how vocal Ospreay is... he's slightly more charismatic.


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    Re: NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 25 Discussion Thread

    Doing some catch up, Hiromu versus Sabin was fun and both guys have had great tournaments. Hiromu really revived himself and Sabin’s found a lot of good ways to contribute without having to set the world on fire. Dragon Lee and Roppongi 3K have been great too.

    Actually don’t think Kushida’s been much so far. Think his stuff has been fine but people are giving him too much credit for stuff that’s felt flat. I just can’t shake the thought that I’m almost bored of him in this division.

    Can’t believe Flips had a more watchable tournament than Marty.
    -------
    Quote Originally Posted by RaiZ-R View Post
    What the fuck is happening to you guys? I once got a blowjob where she used her teeth a little bit too much and I ended up with a bloody dick, I still enjoyed the blowjob up to the point I started bleeding. I can honestly say that I have never had anything I would call a bad blowjob, that wasn't a great experience but up until I started gushing blood I was having a great time!
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