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Thread: The Civil NA Politics Thread

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    The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan View Post
    How would no income tax work though? Are there any successfull countries that dont have income tax?
    Qatar has no income tax and the highest per capita GNI of any country in the world.


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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    UAE also has no income tax, and it's pretty obvious how absurdly successful that country is.

    Saudi Arabia also, and despite being draconian as hell, does very well financially.
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Thanks guys i had no idea.
    Last edited by indyfan; 02-13-2020 at 10:55 AM.
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan View Post
    How would no income tax work though? Are there any successfull countries that dont have income tax?
    I'm actually a big fan of negative externalities taxation. You can look that up, but also Pigouvian taxation. We already use this pretty commonly in the USA through things like 'sin taxes' where you're taxed for alcohol/cigarettes.

    To me, you shouldn't be penalized for professional success. It literally goes entirely against capitalism - the belief the United States is founded upon.

    To me, I think we should increase the level of real estate taxes, gas tax (including airlines), sugar, and so on. In doing so, you effectively choose your tax rate. Greg Mankiw, who was George W. Bush's economic advisor wrote an awesome blog on Pigou, which is initially what turned me onto the idea. You can read it here: https://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006...manifesto.html
    Last edited by Inogenius; 02-13-2020 at 12:15 PM.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Chavez View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/12/polit...nts/index.html

    Genuine question: do you think that if you were a minority you'd support him knowing his history (this isn't to say plenty of minorities aren't supporting him, he's got money to toss around, I'm sure he's not struggling in that regard)? Even if he did apologize, would you be able to trust him to not uphold similar policies as president? Bonus points for the fact that he's now lying about how he addressed that policy by saying he tried to cut it back when he actually tried to appeal the judge's decision:



    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/n...dge-rules.html

    I think it sucks that for a lot of these people (Biden, Buttigieg, Bloobmerg specifically), you have to HEAVILY compartmentalize the genuinely awful things they've done. These apologies don't ignore the fact that they've ruined a ridiculous amount of lives. It's not just that they have policies I'm not quite for - it'd be wonderful if that's all we had to argue about -, but they actually have a history of immoral & horrible actions. It's not any better in Canada considering our current PM, but I was fortunate to have less morally ambiguous choices to choose from in either the NDP or the Green Party.
    No, because I'm not opposed to stop & frisk.

    If it turns out that only minorities are targeted by the program - that's a problem. That's a people problem that needs fixed.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inogenius View Post
    No, because I'm not opposed to stop & frisk.

    If it turns out that only minorities are targeted by the program - that's a problem. That's a people problem that needs fixed.
    This isn't a people problem though, it's specifically a Bloomberg problem. Whatever you think of the program, it was clearly targetted at young male minorities, in his own words because theyre responsible for "95% of murders" (listen to the audio clip yourself).

    https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

    A ridiculous majority of these are minorities, and a large majority were innocent. Stop & frisk is awesome when you dont have to worry about it effecting you not so much when youve gotta be scared everytime you see a cop when youve done nothing wrong. Same nonsense theyre doing here with carding. Disproportionately targets innocent young male minorities.
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inogenius View Post
    I'm actually a big fan of negative externalities taxation. You can look that up, but also Pigouvian taxation. We already use this pretty commonly in the USA through things like 'sin taxes' where you're taxed for alcohol/cigarettes.

    To me, you shouldn't be penalized for professional success. It literally goes entirely against capitalism - the belief the United States is founded upon.

    To me, I think we should increase the level of real estate taxes, gas tax (including airlines), sugar, and so on. In doing so, you effectively choose your tax rate. Greg Mankiw, who was George W. Bush's economic advisor wrote an awesome blog on Pigou, which is initially what turned me onto the idea. You can read it here: https://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006...manifesto.html
    Interesting

    Would Canada having a Electronic tax attached to all things electronic be an example of this? We are currently thinking of adding a carbon tax as well
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    I feel like that's a big issue with a lot of people who vote. I'm a white male who's firmly in the middle class, I don't have to face any racial or poverty issues, I don't own a gun nor care to carry a gun. So when it comes to the extreme issues of gun violence, racism, sexism, police violence, etc. I'm in the exact group that pretty much avoids all of those issues, a part from gun violence. Which I've already stated earlier I think people should be allowed to carry, but restrictions need to be heavy. I'll never know, hopefully and thankfully, what it's like to be singled out/targeted because of my skin tone, or anything of that nature. So my priorities when it comes to potential candidates will vastly differ from others, it's a strange cauldron of a sort-of what's important to you.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inogenius View Post
    I'm actually a big fan of negative externalities taxation. You can look that up, but also Pigouvian taxation. We already use this pretty commonly in the USA through things like 'sin taxes' where you're taxed for alcohol/cigarettes.

    To me, you shouldn't be penalized for professional success. It literally goes entirely against capitalism - the belief the United States is founded upon.

    To me, I think we should increase the level of real estate taxes, gas tax (including airlines), sugar, and so on. In doing so, you effectively choose your tax rate. Greg Mankiw, who was George W. Bush's economic advisor wrote an awesome blog on Pigou, which is initially what turned me onto the idea. You can read it here: https://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006...manifesto.html
    One of America's foundations was also slavery. And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the rich in America have very real connections to profiting off of slavery in their family history. Or profiting off of exploiting workers before unions were a thing. Or using indentured servants. Or other dirty money connections.

    What you're saying sounds good in theory until you realize that the vast majority of the people who are in the positions they're in were born into it. Fuck that, they absolutely can be taxed hard. Especially because even then, they're still richer than you, me, and the rest of the bottom 90% of Americans.

    Capitalism is all about greed and the rich trying to stay rich, while oppressing the poor.


    And I genuinely have no idea how anyone can support stop & frisk. For starters, it's racial profiling. That's an undeniable fact beside society as a whole is conditioned to think minorities are more likely to commit crimes than white people. Minorities were significantly over targeted by stop and frisk. Add onto it, it didn't show any correlation at all in improving safety or crime rates. In fact, crime rates DROPPED after stop and frisk ended.

    Stop and frisk is a great way for people to feel they're living in a police state, and create a bigger fear and mistrust of law enforcement.
    Last edited by Zoom-E; 02-13-2020 at 05:40 PM.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoom-E View Post
    One of America's foundations was also slavery. And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the rich in America have very real connections to profiting off of slavery in their family history. Or profiting off of exploiting workers before unions were a thing. Or using indentured servants. Or other dirty money connections.

    What you're saying sounds good in theory until you realize that the vast majority of the people who are in the positions they're in were born into it. Fuck that, they absolutely can be taxed hard. Especially because even then, they're still richer than you, me, and the rest of the bottom 90% of Americans.

    Capitalism is all about greed and the rich trying to stay rich, while oppressing the poor.
    I think you're arguing about a single line in my response. The people who would be most impacted by negative externality taxation are the rich; the ones who live a life of excess.

    Further changing the tax laws like this, there's no way to use a tax shelter to avoid paying taxes. You're literally paying upon consumption. There's no way to move your house to the Cayman Islands to avoid real estate tax, or import your gasoline from Luxembourg.
    Last edited by Inogenius; 02-13-2020 at 08:53 PM.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan View Post
    Interesting

    Would Canada having a Electronic tax attached to all things electronic be an example of this? We are currently thinking of adding a carbon tax as well
    Not really familiar with an electronic tax, but a Carbon tax is for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Chavez View Post
    This isn't a people problem though, it's specifically a Bloomberg problem. Whatever you think of the program, it was clearly targetted at young male minorities, in his own words because theyre responsible for "95% of murders" (listen to the audio clip yourself).

    https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

    A ridiculous majority of these are minorities, and a large majority were innocent. Stop & frisk is awesome when you dont have to worry about it effecting you not so much when youve gotta be scared everytime you see a cop when youve done nothing wrong. Same nonsense theyre doing here with carding. Disproportionately targets innocent young male minorities.
    I'm all for a stricter definition of who should be stopped. But looking at those numbers, can we expand it nationwide? Look at 2005 - we're talking 46,000 criminals stopped. Even in 2019, they were correct 32% of the time. Imagine what the murder rate would be in DC or Chicago with a stop and frisk policy. Oddly, I apparently just agreed with Trump (though apparently it is in use to a limited extent): https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ce/1570409002/

    Quote Originally Posted by CNEW2 View Post
    I feel like that's a big issue with a lot of people who vote. I'm a white male who's firmly in the middle class, I don't have to face any racial or poverty issues, I don't own a gun nor care to carry a gun. So when it comes to the extreme issues of gun violence, racism, sexism, police violence, etc. I'm in the exact group that pretty much avoids all of those issues, a part from gun violence. Which I've already stated earlier I think people should be allowed to carry, but restrictions need to be heavy. I'll never know, hopefully and thankfully, what it's like to be singled out/targeted because of my skin tone, or anything of that nature. So my priorities when it comes to potential candidates will vastly differ from others, it's a strange cauldron of a sort-of what's important to you.
    Exactly.

    Like honestly - Bernie Sanders is probably the best for America. But for me? Def not feeling the Bern

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inogenius View Post
    I think you're arguing about a single line in my response. The people who would be most impacted by negative externality taxation are the rich; the ones who live a life of excess.

    Further changing the tax laws like this, there's no way to use a tax shelter to avoid paying taxes. You're literally paying upon consumption. There's no way to move your house to the Cayman Islands to avoid real estate tax, or import your gasoline from Luxembourg.
    Yes, because you said that people shouldn't be penalized aka taxed for their professional success, when I'm saying most of that success isn't earned, but birthed into from generations of dirty, bloody money.

    Truthfully, everything else you were saying just sounded like a bunch of unintelligible gibberish to me :P spouting off a bunch of awkward as hell, tax terms and not bothering to really elaborate on what any of it is, is not going to get my focus or attention

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    I don't mean this in a snarky or mean way, but.......

    Do you really think the goal of people debating and discussing here is to get your attention?

    I quite literally have never seen you until you posted in here earlier. It's rather arrogant to suggest someone has to elaborate and explain things in a way simply for your attention, when you more or less barged into a discussion.
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakura View Post
    I don't mean this in a snarky or mean way, but.......

    Do you really think the goal of people debating and discussing here is to get your attention?

    I quite literally have never seen you until you posted in here earlier. It's rather arrogant to suggest someone has to elaborate and explain things in a way simply for your attention, when you more or less barged into a discussion.
    I'm not sure what was wanted. I don't think people want lectures (nor am I capable of delivering one). I tried to link to resources that provided more information, or opportunities to do your own research.

    And the villains - the rich upper class born into wealth - aren't even impacted by income tax in the sense that most of us are. They're typically paying capital gains / estate / trust tax.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inogenius View Post
    I'm not sure what was wanted. I don't think people want lectures (nor am I capable of delivering one). I tried to link to resources that provided more information, or opportunities to do your own research.

    And the villains - the rich upper class born into wealth - aren't even impacted by income tax in the sense that most of us are. They're typically paying capital gains / estate / trust tax.
    Hm.

    That last line interests me.

    You specify those born into great wealth. What of those who achieve absurd wealth whom do not come from wealth? Also, while we can gripe about inequality and the gap between castes...Is it truly fair to label a class of people villains, when they had no say in the matter of what they were born into?
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakura View Post
    I don't mean this in a snarky or mean way, but.......

    Do you really think the goal of people debating and discussing here is to get your attention?

    I quite literally have never seen you until you posted in here earlier. It's rather arrogant to suggest someone has to elaborate and explain things in a way simply for your attention, when you more or less barged into a discussion.
    Soooo your saying, if I come in here and comment on something,I need to comment on the full post, and not try to start discussion on any single part that piqued my interest? I can't comment on the only part that grabbed my attention? I think you're very much, albeit indirectly I would hope, twisting the connotation of my words, to an unintended narrative on my end.

    I'm not going to comment on (aka it didn't get my attention) the very specifics of the tax jargon, is what I'm saying, especially when, as stated, it sounds like gibberish to me. Don't fully get it, not super interested in it. Hell, the link didn't even open for me initially - although that was I'm assuming my connection being wonky at the time because the service is weird at work sometimes - I disagreed with the idea that just because capitalism is a foundation of America, it needs to be the be all end all. Having read the link though, it just saying we should raise gas tax because people will drive less and this kind of tax is better, 1) isn't going to get people driving less because most people absolutely need to drive to work 2) will just hurt people more financially 3) while it sounds good in theory, according to the link, the tax system isn't going to be dramatically overhauled to do less income tax and more consumption tax.

    I'm someone who is totally okay with being taxed more, the more successful you are. I just this year moved up a tax bracket because I broke the threshold of the previous one since I made more money. I'm totally okay with that, because I'm (hopefully) helping more people this way, and it's not like I'm going without.

    If anything should be changed, it should be all of the ridiculous exemptions and write offs that are allowed so the top percenters are allowed to utilize to avoid paying tax. But it's the rich who create these methods in the first place to ensure they keep as much of their money as they can - capitalist greed at its finest. I'm not trying to say the rich are villains, but surely anyone with a little understanding of how this country operates know the wealthiest people have most of the power, and enact measures to try and keep it that way.

    But hey, if you trying to get involved in a discussion here is "barging in" because you're still getting used to posting outside of one section, I'm good then. Very poor way to try and welcome discussion for all, not just the people you normally have discussions with.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoom-E View Post
    Soooo your saying, if I come in here and comment on something,I need to comment on the full post, and not try to start discussion on any single part that piqued my interest? I can't comment on the only part that grabbed my attention? I think you're very much, albeit indirectly I would hope, twisting the connotation of my words, to an unintended narrative on my end.

    I'm not going to comment on (aka it didn't get my attention) the very specifics of the tax jargon, is what I'm saying, especially when, as stated, it sounds like gibberish to me. Don't fully get it, not super interested in it. Hell, the link didn't even open for me initially - although that was I'm assuming my connection being wonky at the time because the service is weird at work sometimes - I disagreed with the idea that just because capitalism is a foundation of America, it needs to be the be all end all. Having read the link though, it just saying we should raise gas tax because people will drive less and this kind of tax is better, 1) isn't going to get people driving less because most people absolutely need to drive to work 2) will just hurt people more financially 3) while it sounds good in theory, according to the link, the tax system isn't going to be dramatically overhauled to do less income tax and more consumption tax.

    I'm someone who is totally okay with being taxed more, the more successful you are. I just this year moved up a tax bracket because I broke the threshold of the previous one since I made more money. I'm totally okay with that, because I'm (hopefully) helping more people this way, and it's not like I'm going without.

    If anything should be changed, it should be all of the ridiculous exemptions and write offs that are allowed so the top percenters are allowed to utilize to avoid paying tax. But it's the rich who create these methods in the first place to ensure they keep as much of their money as they can - capitalist greed at its finest. I'm not trying to say the rich are villains, but surely anyone with a little understanding of how this country operates know the wealthiest people have most of the power, and enact measures to try and keep it that way.

    But hey, if you trying to get involved in a discussion here is "barging in" because you're still getting used to posting outside of one section, I'm good then. Very poor way to try and welcome discussion for all, not just the people you normally have discussions with.
    No. What I'm saying is, if you jump into a conversation with "You aren't going to get my interest with..", it can come off as if you are saying the conversation must go a certain way to appease you.

    If that's not the intent, then hey, whatever. My bad.
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Yeah, that wasn't what I was saying at all. It's also why it was said at the very end of the (second) post, after my original point was deflected off as "well you're only talking about one point."

    It's all good either way. I got your points loud and clear

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Bernie is crushing it, you love to see it.

    I've always said I felt he was the only one who even stands a chance against Trump because his supporters are energised for him, not just anti-Trump.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Bernie is crushing it, you love to see it.

    I've always said I felt he was the only one who even stands a chance against Trump because his supporters are energised for him, not just anti-Trump.

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    My fear is that Bernie needs to convert Trump voters or energise more people to vote for him. I can't see him converting many Trump fans unfortunately.

    As whack as it is to say but Bloomberg has a really good chance against Trump too because of crossover appeal.

    Likes of Biden and Warren and Buttigieg have no chance.


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