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Thread: The Civil NA Politics Thread

  1. #2821
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfan View Post
    George Bushs grandfather , Prescott Bush was supplying Germany with oil. They actually needed that oil to use most of their war machines.

    There no way Germany would of taken North America by themselves( or should i say, without Russia). They couldnt take an island (Britain) that was close to Germany and their territories they had conquered, How were they going to take the Americas? The Bering strait? Its choke point. From the North through Canada? Which is the Artic, their machines and soldiers couldn't take a blistering winter.

    Once Russia turned...they were doomed. Thats why i credit them(and mother nature) more than the US for WW 2 ending.
    Don't think Germany could have won even if Russia didn't turn, tbh. The best they could have hoped for was a stalemate with us since neither were going to take over the other. We didn't have the land army that could invade them, and they didn't have the navy or airforce that could take Britain. I believe Hitler saw Britain initially as an ally and had no intention of declaring war on them, though don't quote me on that.

    All that said if Germany didn't turn on Russia then the second world war would have been pointless since Russia was Germany's main objective (along with reuniting Germany with "its" people and exterminating Slavs and Jews).

    I think Nazi Germany was doomed to start with no matter what Hitler had planned. But all the Allies, the US and Russia deserve credit for many reasons for winning the war. I do agree that Russia accelerated the end of the war though.

  2. #2822

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Shut up Shock the only reason we aren't speaking German is cause of 'Murica's intervention

    Duh.


    edit: thought i'd edited this earlier but in seriousness, I think Hitler had no chance of winning the war for the reason that he was surrounded by yes men who wouldn't have tried to correct him. Russia vs Germany was an inevitability down the line too.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 07-14-2018 at 09:22 AM.


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  3. #2823
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Germany wouldn't have did much to the U.S.

    Japan would have however. Japan could have kept up their bombing runs for quite some time and we saw how much damage they at Pearl Harbor.

    There were even a some submarine attacks on coastal towns in the U.S. by Japanese submarines during the war.

    If the U.S. had to stop helping with Germany and focus on Japan then I believe the war would have ended much differently for much of Europe.

    Also, the U.S. led the Normandy invasion and more Americans paid the ultimate sacrifice during Operation Overlord than any other country by far.

    Discounting that is downright despicable and disrespectful.

    The fact is, without America's help and leadership the outcome of the war could have been vastly different and nobody can argue that.

    Anyone not giving America credit for their part in WWII are simply just illogical American hating people.

    “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakstang View Post
    Germany wouldn't have did much to the U.S.

    Japan would have however. Japan could have kept up their bombing runs for quite some time and we saw how much damage they at Pearl Harbor.

    There were even a some submarine attacks on coastal towns in the U.S. by Japanese submarines during the war.

    If the U.S. had to stop helping with Germany and focus on Japan then I believe the war would have ended much differently for much of Europe.

    Also, the U.S. led the Normandy invasion and more Americans paid the ultimate sacrifice during Operation Overlord than any other country by far.

    Discounting that is downright despicable and disrespectful.

    The fact is, without America's help and leadership the outcome of the war could have been vastly different and nobody can argue that.

    Anyone not giving America credit for their part in WWII are simply just illogical American hating people.
    There is a difference between giving America its due credit and giving America sole credit. Everyone understands and appreciates the American contribution. Nobody in their right mind thinks America was the sole reason the war was won.


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  5. #2825
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    There is a difference between giving America its due credit and giving America sole credit. Everyone understands and appreciates the American contribution. Nobody in their right mind thinks America was the sole reason the war was won.
    Could America have done it alone? No.

    Could the war have been won without America? I have my doubts.

    “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakstang View Post
    Germany wouldn't have did much to the U.S.

    Japan would have however. Japan could have kept up their bombing runs for quite some time and we saw how much damage they at Pearl Harbor.

    There were even a some submarine attacks on coastal towns in the U.S. by Japanese submarines during the war.

    If the U.S. had to stop helping with Germany and focus on Japan then I believe the war would have ended much differently for much of Europe.

    Also, the U.S. led the Normandy invasion and more Americans paid the ultimate sacrifice during Operation Overlord than any other country by far.

    Discounting that is downright despicable and disrespectful.

    The fact is, without America's help and leadership the outcome of the war could have been vastly different and nobody can argue that.

    Anyone not giving America credit for their part in WWII are simply just illogical American hating people.
    Nobody is discounting or discrediting the American war efforts?

    All countries made huge sacrifices and played a part in winning the war.

    My point was that Germany really had no hope of winning in Europe to start with because Britain was an unwinnable war for them because we couldn't invade them (not having the numbers), and they couldn't invade us (we had a much superior navy and air force). And Russia, who were the primary target of the German war effort, had the men and acres of land to work with that made defeating them very difficult, especially as the German resources started to wear thin. Of course, the help and sacrifices from Americans helped take down Hitler a lot quicker than had they not entered the war.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Nobody is discounting or discrediting the American war efforts?

    All countries made huge sacrifices and played a part in winning the war.

    My point was that Germany really had no hope of winning in Europe to start with because Britain was an unwinnable war for them because we couldn't invade them (not having the numbers), and they couldn't invade us (we had a much superior navy and air force). And Russia, who were the primary target of the German war effort, had the men and acres of land to work with that made defeating them very difficult, especially as the German resources started to wear thin. Of course, the help and sacrifices from Americans helped take down Hitler a lot quicker than had they not entered the war.
    You could also reasonably argue that Germany was already getting smacked by the Soviets in the East (where most of their strength was focused) and well on their way to losing the war before D-Day was even started. You could even argue that Operation Bagration being launched pretty much in conjunction with Operation Overlord is what really made it successful. I don't think America's war efforts were the deciding factor but they certainly provided a great ton of help in breaking through France and helping the Allies in the Western Front. I just don't think wiping that away changes the outcome of the war all that much.


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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    You could also reasonably argue that Germany was already getting smacked by the Soviets in the East (where most of their strength was focused) and well on their way to losing the war before D-Day was even started. You could even argue that Operation Bagration being launched pretty much in conjunction with Operation Overlord is what really made it successful. I don't think America's war efforts were the deciding factor but they certainly provided a great ton of help in breaking through France and helping the Allies in the Western Front. I just don't think wiping that away changes the outcome of the war all that much.
    I think it changes the outcome of the war very much.

    Without having to fight a war on different fronts, Germany would have had time to recover and remobilize.

    They had a lot of things in the works and had superior equipment.

    They were working on larger tanks, larger airplanes and larger ships that could have been devastating if the war had gone on a few more years.

    “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”

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  9. #2829
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    The Nazis were crumbling on the Inside as well. All of the inner circle that Hitler had was all conspiring against each other to gain his attention and to move up in his grace so in a sense they also helped with their own demise.

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  10. #2830
    YES! YES! YES!

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    What I'm hearing is that people are in the mood for WWII mafia.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakstang View Post
    I think it changes the outcome of the war very much.

    Without having to fight a war on different fronts, Germany would have had time to recover and remobilize.

    They had a lot of things in the works and had superior equipment.

    They were working on larger tanks, larger airplanes and larger ships that could have been devastating if the war had gone on a few more years.
    Germany were already fighting wars on multiple fronts. It was a world war, there were enemies and allies everywhere, especially considering this was while the British Empire was still huge with reserves across the world. Germany, on the other hand, didn't have the worldwide resources that Russia, US or the UK had at their disposal - which is one reason why Hitler felt like going after Russia was the best thing to do.

    They didn't have superior equipment with fuel reserves running dry very quickly as the war progressed.

    In terms of tanks they were already ahead of the game but it does little to help in Russia or against the UK. For ships and airplanes they were always playing catchup to ourselves, and they couldn't have possibly concentrated on invading Britain and Russia.

    The absolute best case scenario for Hitler was Britain either not entering the war at all, or bowing out of the war early so that he could concentrate on his main objective: Eastern Europe and Russia. But with Churchill and our obligations to the French there was no way we were going to drop out.

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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakstang View Post
    I think it changes the outcome of the war very much.

    Without having to fight a war on different fronts, Germany would have had time to recover and remobilize.

    They had a lot of things in the works and had superior equipment.

    They were working on larger tanks, larger airplanes and larger ships that could have been devastating if the war had gone on a few more years.
    America's participation was vital in getting Germany to fight on two fronts, absolutely, IMO. Though I do think Germany would have still been fighting on two fronts regardless because Britian was already involved. Perhaps with slightly less focus. But more on that in a second.

    But I disagree, with respect, about the rest of your post. Germany was already in pieces by the time D-Day came around and they were already retreating en masse after the Battle of Kursk - which took place months before America got involved through Operation Torch and Overlord. Though you could say the invasion of Sicily provided some distraction too. Like I said before, Operation Bagration was arguably much more vital than Overlord in beating the Germans. This was a Russian operation.

    I also disagree that Germany were making stronger weapons. Do you have a source on that? Because I would thought it'd be the opposite. Germany was lacking in materials and Russia was on the rise.

    Without American participation, the War wouldn't have ended when it did. But it was an inevitability that Russia were well on their way to dominating the Germans. The Germans focused their strongest, and most, of their forces on the Eastern Front - that is a fact. The Russians still gave them a doing. And would still have given them a doing if Germany's full force was focused there. The German forces on the Western Front were inferior to those on the Eastern. Without American help, Germany would have still struggled on the Western Front. But the American intervention and planning certainly got their attention. Russia still outnumbered them. It just wouldn't have been as quick because Russia wouldn't have had the US's assistance in terms of vehicles and weaponry etc. More bloody, for sure... but Russia were winning it no matter what.


    All in all, America provided great resources and their effort certainly sped up the inevitable outcome. But Russia would have taken Germany by itself if need be. The Germans were never, ever going to have another offensive strategic push on the East after Kursk.

    The only difference would have been Europe going full on Red. Except Britain & Ireland.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 07-14-2018 at 10:13 AM.


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  13. #2833
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    The other thing worth noting is the empires that the Allies had at their disposal. Prior to world war 2, the French, Netherlands, and the UK spent centuries expanding their empires, whereas that was never a German strategy. What that meant was that the Allies had at their disposal huge parts of Africa, Asia, not to mention all of Australia and Canada. All in Allied hands, along with all the resources that go with it. Because of Britain and Russia's geographical place in the world, Germany was trapped between the two to the East and West, with Africa to the south (not to mention certain Balkan states that weren't too chuffed with Germany at the time).

    With Spain, Portugal and America being neutral in this scenario, it meant that the Atlantic - at least as far as war efforts - belonged to the Royal Navy which was far far above that of the German army. We could pump resources and men in far above what the Germans could. Then there's the vastness of the Russian empire which was capable of fighting on multiple fronts as it did.

    Of course all this ended up destroying the British Empire because we had to use up so many of our resources, and would have done even more damage had the American forces not entered.

    I agree with Shake. Russia could have pushed back a German invasion by itself even on one front just by sheer location and manpower. It would have taken a while, but I honestly don't think there's a scenario where Germany wins World War 2 - or at least I don't think there's a scenario where they achieve their pre-war objectives.
    Last edited by Shock; 07-14-2018 at 10:29 AM.

  14. #2834
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Totally alternate history, but is there a scenario where Russia & Germany sign a peace treaty?

  15. #2835
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inogenius View Post
    Totally alternate history, but is there a scenario where Russia & Germany sign a peace treaty?
    Absolutely none.

    Hitler was an ideologist, and he was perhaps the most staunchly anti-communist, anti-Marxist figure in history. Toppling the Russians before they expanded (he saw the USSR, rightly, as a threat to Eastern Europe and didn't want the communist influence to expand) was one of Hitler's main objectives.

    There was perhaps a slight chance that Germany could have gotten a peace treaty from Great Britain because the war benefited neither nation and had no real end-game for either of them. Hitler didn't want or need Great Britain, and Britain had no intention of taking Germany either.

    EDIT: Funnily enough here's a little tidbit for you. After it became apparent that Nazi Germany was going to fall to the Allied forces, they tried to negotiate a peace treaty with Great Britain and the United States where they'd agree to stop fighting if the UK and the USA helped the Germans continue to fight the Soviet Union. That's how far deep the Nazis were in to destroying the USSR.
    Last edited by Shock; 07-14-2018 at 10:59 AM.

  16. #2836
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    Re: The Civil NA Politics Thread

    I love how with that comment I turned this into a WW2 history thread. xD
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