View Poll Results: Who has been the better wrestler?

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  • Pete Dunne

    10 62.50%
  • Kazuchika Okada

    6 37.50%
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Thread: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

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    WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    ~~~PETE DUNNE~~~



    ~~~KAZUCHIKA OKADA~~~


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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Yeah, Okada's good and all. But from what I've seen, I just can't connect emotionally to his performance nearly as well as Pete Dunne or Omega in those two matches. I thought it was no wonder those crowds are cheering on Omega, Okada just comes off as a boring fuck in comparison who happens to do some sick dropkicks.

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    End of the road for Pete Dunne as far as my vote is concerned

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Okada wishes he could be as consistent as PETER. Needs to take note of Pete's dickishness, Pete's diversity, Pete's ability to adapt into roles better. Peter's better and you're trolling hard if you're putting Okada over.

    I'd say Okada's best performance was the recent Kojima match and I can name three Dunne matches that are better than that. I could also probably name at least 10 Dunne matches better than Okada vs. Omega.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiZ-R View Post
    What the fuck is happening to you guys? I once got a blowjob where she used her teeth a little bit too much and I ended up with a bloody dick, I still enjoyed the blowjob up to the point I started bleeding. I can honestly say that I have never had anything I would call a bad blowjob, that wasn't a great experience but up until I started gushing blood I was having a great time!

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Such an easy vote for Dunne here


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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Quote Originally Posted by Darling Nicky View Post
    Okada wishes he could be as consistent as PETER. Needs to take note of Pete's dickishness, Pete's diversity, Pete's ability to adapt into roles better. Peter's better and you're trolling hard if you're putting Okada over.

    I'd say Okada's best performance was the recent Kojima match and I can name three Dunne matches that are better than that. I could also probably name at least 10 Dunne matches better than Okada vs. Omega.


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    Last edited by RainShaker; 08-08-2017 at 06:31 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Quote Originally Posted by RyuShake Taguchi View Post


    gr8 b8 m8
    Quote Originally Posted by RyuShake Taguchi View Post
    can't vote cause I haven't seen enough Pete Dunne
    I like how this applies to every round but conveniently doesn't apply to this round.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiZ-R View Post
    What the fuck is happening to you guys? I once got a blowjob where she used her teeth a little bit too much and I ended up with a bloody dick, I still enjoyed the blowjob up to the point I started bleeding. I can honestly say that I have never had anything I would call a bad blowjob, that wasn't a great experience but up until I started gushing blood I was having a great time!

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Quote Originally Posted by Darling Nicky View Post
    I like how this applies to every round but conveniently doesn't apply to this round.

    I like how you conveniently missed where I asked for Pete Dunne matches to watch last round.
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  9. #9
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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Quote Originally Posted by RyuShake Taguchi View Post
    I like how you conveniently missed where I asked for Pete Dunne matches to watch last round.
    Highly doubt you've watched enough to gain a valid opinion in such a short span but whatever.

    G8 B8 junior
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiZ-R View Post
    What the fuck is happening to you guys? I once got a blowjob where she used her teeth a little bit too much and I ended up with a bloody dick, I still enjoyed the blowjob up to the point I started bleeding. I can honestly say that I have never had anything I would call a bad blowjob, that wasn't a great experience but up until I started gushing blood I was having a great time!

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Quote Originally Posted by Darling Nicky View Post
    Highly doubt you've watched enough to gain a valid opinion in such a short span but whatever.

    G8 B8 junior

    I also said at the start of the tournament that I would vote Okada over anyone. I don't really know what you want me to say or why you care so much. If Dunne wins, he's got my vote for the next round. It's not like everyone who is voting here is voting based off of the knowledge of people's entire year anyway

    I don't really think Okada and Dunne can be compared so much in a complete breakdown of wrestling. Same really goes for comparing people who work, mainly, in completely different companies. Different philosophies, different cultures, different things the fans want to see etc. I'm comfortable saying I enjoy watching Okada more. That's all.


    Though I do disagree about Okada not being consistent. I don't really know what about him makes him inconsistent.
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  11. #11
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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Inconsistent isn't the word I would use to describe Okada. I think he's extremely consistent. I think he's so consistent he's essentially the same in all of his matches. I always leave his heralded matches thinking he's the second best performer and that despite having all the tools in terms of the moves he does, athleticism and is arguably the strongest booked wrestler in the world, he is also extremely bland, robotic, and one note, often settling into a very routine performance when it's time to flip the switch that we have all seen a ton of times, even when the situation calls for more (February Suzuki match, Shibata match. We knew just when the dropkick was coming and how things were gonna end). Ultimately if you took his booking away and a lot of superficial stuff away from him I don't think he's anywhere near a top 64 wrestler in the world if we're talking about him as a total package (no offense Lex). That said, he's had a really strong G1 and despite his continued flaws I have come away very positive on his run and thinking a turning of the corner may he afoot. I have enjoyed him vs a variety of opponents and he's showing minor growth actually which has been a big problem for him over the years that he's just always been him with no need to grow or change.

    Dunne is a delight to watch in multiple ways and legitimately better than Okada in every facet of being a pro wrestler. One of the strongest performers in the ring and as a character, even last year he was my personal favorite of the BritWres guys and someone I would vote ahead of anyone in that group, even the more popular guys like Will & Marty. I think he just might end up winning this whole thing with the way the leaves are turning.
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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Zero's on the money, inconsistency isn't the issue at all, for me he's very samey. That's why something like the Kojima match is so great, because it was Okada changing up his game for one night of the year and I was marking out for it. This is also the year Okada killed not only the rainmaker, but THE SECOND rainmaker with his cute storytelling wrist lock hold because he can't stop himself from being excessive in his matches. New Japan fanboys create so many narratives of Okada telling the story that his title reign is pushing himself to his limits just to defend him doing multiple finisher kick outs in every big match. There's some highs for sure, but there's also actively bad Okada matches and I just don't think Pete Dunne has any of those.

    Dunne's been terrific and a big reason why WWE UK and Progress Wrestling have been worth watching.

    Which Pete Dunne matches did you get around to watching Shake?

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    I say inconsistent because I can get glued on or off very easily in an Okada match. I finally find a way to get hooked into his performance and then I'm right back out. I think his pacing his atrocious. I think he doesn't know how to structure a great match at all. When he turns it on and actually starts to care I'm past the point of being invested and the kitchen sink has to be brought out for me to be hooked. I've said it countless times. It is a problem to me that I should expect laziness from my main eventer. The "best in the world" shouldn't make me not care for a finishing stretch, for a heat sequence, shouldn't kill the legitimacy of his finisher. I cannot buy a solid defense of why Okada is not problematic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiZ-R View Post
    What the fuck is happening to you guys? I once got a blowjob where she used her teeth a little bit too much and I ended up with a bloody dick, I still enjoyed the blowjob up to the point I started bleeding. I can honestly say that I have never had anything I would call a bad blowjob, that wasn't a great experience but up until I started gushing blood I was having a great time!

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada




    Okada is great in my opinion and better then dunne BUT I do see why people voted for Dunne. Oh this argument that okada can't adapt is kind of unfair since I can't rmeberr when was the last time new Japan done a really hardcore match or some of the matches Dunne has done over the past year?

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Like judging any wrestler, it really depends on what you enjoy in wrestling.

    As far as Okada goes - I can see why some people don't like him. I, personally, don't have much of a problem with him. He's been the most entertaining/interesting part of NJPW for the last year or so for me and his title reign has been a good story to follow. It's all fit well into his character traits and his evolution. That's not to say other people haven't had good stories in NJPW this last year too (Naito and Tanahashi come to mind). I also happen to have the opinion that Okada is absolutely the total package when it comes to NJPW main eventers and is exactly who they should be pushing. The only person that comes close to him is Tanahashi. It's a shame that Tanahashi is old now as the Tanahashi/Okada rivalry in this era would be phenomenal. Should go down as one of the GOATs but his contribution will likely be forgotten/undervalued as he gets outshone by Okada and others during NJPW's new golden era.

    When comparing him to Dunne, they come across as different characters to me. Dunne's more of a deliberate dickhead that doesn't really give a fuck. He's a bully. Okada's more of a guy who is a dickhead just by proxy of being privileged and being an arrogant yet talented twat most of the time. I think both do a great job of making that character shine through - Okada through thinking he can take people on at their own game in big matches + promoing where he regularly just puts himself over or completely disrespects people. It's what he's been doing the entire G1. I can't go super in depth on Dunne but I've seen enough from him in the UKCT and a few promos here and there to know that he's obviously mastered being a bully type dickhead. In other words: Dunne is a deliberate heel. Okada is a tweener who leans closer to a certain alignment (in terms of crowd reaction) based on opponent but as a character, he definitely leans closer to heel. Which is why I find it confusing if people are suddenly shocked he's working heel or calling him inconsistent: he never truly turned face in the first place. The crowd just started cheering him and he has his own set of fans which seems fairly typical of Japanese audiences to have their own favourites regardless of alignment. It's absolutely not out of character for Okada to be a dick to his opponents based on how much he respects them or not. Naito another example of this too. Nowhere near being face but cheered by plenty.

    Dunne being better in all facets of pro wrestling... I mean... it depends on what you enjoy in pro wrestling, oviously. Their characters aren't very comparable and both play them well as noted above, Okada IMO looks cooler and has a better look for being the top guy in a company and he comes across more athletic. As far as wrestling goes - again I struggle to compare totally. I don't think the products are all that similar. I think the person you're going to enjoy the most is highly dependent on which wrestling style and product you like better for the most part. Doesn't mean you can't criticse other aspects but comparing how Dunne structures a match to Okada doesn't make sense to me because they aren't working like for like products. Okada's matches are tailored for his main audience as is Dunne's. It's fair enough if you aren't entertained by Okada's matches, though. That's just preference and can't really be helped all that much.

    As far as the rainmaker being killed goes - I'm not gonna say it's him pushing it to the limits but I genuinely believe that there's a difference in Okada's rainmakers and which one is 'strong' and which is 'weak'. The rainmakers that get kicked out of are the shorter/counter versions whilst the ones where the entire move sequence play out in full usually result in a win. The only person I've seen kickout of a fullblown rainmaker this year is Omega, iirc. So, I'd say the counter rainmaker is ineffective but if Okada gets the 'ripcord' sequence off and hits you with the lariat, you're likely done unless you are Tanahashi, Omega or Naito. Might be a bullshit explanation but I'm almost certain you could pick flaws and explanations for those flaws for anyone if you try hard enough to find them. What I think of the wrist clutch spot is that it's simply Okada trying to transition into another rainmaker as it almost always comes after the weaker version of the move and he has to do two to put the opponent away. I don't think it's meant as a significant spot or anything, just a signal of intent at that point in time. I mean, if you intend on landing a second rainmaker after the first, you aren't going to let go anyway. It's only logical that he does it more and more if he's discovered it as a tactic. I don't really look too much into finisher protection or spam since it's been a common theme with people like Tanahashi and Nakamura.

    Okada matches being 'samey' is something I don't really buy into. I think he's had different matches since Marufuji at KOPW last year. Omega to Suzuki to Tiger Mask to Shibata to Fale to Omega II to the G1, the matches have been different for the most part IMO. If you're saying match structure/performance is the same, that's fine, but clearly, it isn't an issue for the target audience otherwise NJPW would be stagnating.

    To me, Okada gives the NJPW fans what they want and expect to see time and time again. He fits their ideal vision of what a 'wrestler' is with his personality, his look and everything he does in the ring. I can't say he's a bad wrestler for that. At the end of the day, I find the dude entertaining and I find his matches entertaining without the need to dissect his matches, really. That's all that matters to me. The only actual complaint I can properly agree on, to an extent, is that Okada's knee selling is atrocious sometimes. But it doesn't really ruin a match for me. I still enjoyed Okada vs Suzuki and Okada vs Omega II very much.


    TLDR: Okada is exactly what the NJPW fans want and his matches are exactly what they're into. I wouldn't take away from him for fitting to exactly what the domestic audience wants. I find Okada-Dunne comparisons to be near impossible to make. The characters are unlike each other in terms of traits and proper alignment and they both wrestle for different audiences with different tastes and culture.



    @Ed

    I watched a few matches - I couldn't really find anything Dave listed - and I can say that I do like Dunne. I always have. He stood out the most at the UKCT other than Mandrews. I'm not fully sold on Tyler Bate compared to being fully sold on Dunne. I am not as emotionally invested in Dunne or know the storylines of matches so, again, difficult to compare to Okada in match quality. I also muted some of what I watched because I wasn't really digging commentary or the crowd at points.

    vs Sexsmith at Progress 53 (either I'm missing something or somehow Sexsmith is really good and didn't show it in this match. Not convinced I'd like him. Lol at Dunne hitting crew members.)
    vs Trent Seven, BT Gunn and Wolfgang at Shug's Hoose Party
    vs Dijak at Progress 50
    vs Haskins and Mandrews at Progress 48
    vs Joe Hendry at WCPW Loaded
    vs ZSJ at OTT Invasion Supershow

    I think Dunne was the best performer in all the matches I saw, really... although I think Dijak was great in their match too. I was going to watch the title match with CCK from chapter 51 but I noticed that the match had to do with a previous encounter at chapter 50 and thought I should watch that first... but it didn't have Dunne so I didn't prioritise it. I'll probably get around to watching both in succession soon though. Tried to watch the Super Strong Style stuff but couldn't find links that worked. I did like what I watched otherwise but it's just something I don't think I'm going to get into properly from top to bottom on cards and shit. If I did, I can pretty clearly tell that Dunne would be one of my favourites. I'll probably make an effort to try and find more progress shows and see if that can change. Anti piracy intro is pretty fucking funny though


    But as I've said - not really emotionally invested in Dunne enough to properly compare him to Okada. All I can do is say who I'm entertained more by and that's Okada right now. That, ultimately, just comes down to the sort of wrestling product I prefer. I don't think Dunne's anywhere near a bad wrestler though.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 08-09-2017 at 08:13 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    First of all, I don't hate Okada, I voted him over Naito and maybe someone else in this tournament. Zero will remember the time I was the biggest Okada mark on the forum and used to have him as my avatar/sig. His G1 has been great and almost universally praised which is why I think there clearly has been some flaws in his game this year for his harshest critics to spot that his July-August was more enjoyable than anything else this year. I've marked out big time for a couple of performances recently, arguably some of his best work ever against Kojima and Suzuki.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyuShake Taguchi View Post
    I also happen to have the opinion that Okada is absolutely the total package when it comes to NJPW main eventers and is exactly who they should be pushing. The only person that comes close to him is Tanahashi. It's a shame that Tanahashi is old now as the Tanahashi/Okada rivalry in this era would be phenomenal. Should go down as one of the GOATs but his contribution will likely be forgotten/undervalued as he gets outshone by Okada and others during NJPW's new golden era.
    I think most people who watch New Japan would consider Tanahashi one of the greatest of his generation and Okada hasn't outshadowed him yet. His 6th title reign from 12-13 was delivering quality main event after quality main event. Even if people only hopped in during this 5 year boom when Okada was first getting his main event push, they've still seen 5 years of incredible wrestling from the former ace.

    When comparing him to Dunne, they come across as different characters to me. Dunne's more of a deliberate dickhead that doesn't really give a fuck. He's a bully. Okada's more of a guy who is a dickhead just by proxy of being privileged and being an arrogant yet talented twat most of the time. I think both do a great job of making that character shine through - Okada through thinking he can take people on at their own game in big matches + promoing where he regularly just puts himself over or completely disrespects people. It's what he's been doing the entire G1. I can't go super in depth on Dunne but I've seen enough from him in the UKCT and a few promos here and there to know that he's obviously mastered being a bully type dickhead. In other words: Dunne is a deliberate heel. Okada is a tweener who leans closer to a certain alignment (in terms of crowd reaction) based on opponent but as a character, he definitely leans closer to heel. Which is why I find it confusing if people are suddenly shocked he's working heel or calling him inconsistent: he never truly turned face in the first place. The crowd just started cheering him and he has his own set of fans which seems fairly typical of Japanese audiences to have their own favourites regardless of alignment. It's absolutely not out of character for Okada to be a dick to his opponents based on how much he respects them or not. Naito another example of this too. Nowhere near being face but cheered by plenty.
    Not sure why the question of which wrestler is the better wrestler is coming down to 'they're too unlike each other character wise to compare'. How many wrestlers in this tournament of 64 have the same character? Hasn't seemed to be an issue for you before this matchup.

    I can't argue with you preferring Okada's character to Dunne's because it's personal preference.

    As far as the rainmaker being killed goes - I'm not gonna say it's him pushing it to the limits but I genuinely believe that there's a difference in Okada's rainmakers and which one is 'strong' and which is 'weak'. The rainmakers that get kicked out of are the shorter/counter versions whilst the ones where the entire move sequence play out in full usually result in a win. The only person I've seen kickout of a fullblown rainmaker this year is Omega, iirc. So, I'd say the counter rainmaker is ineffective but if Okada gets the 'ripcord' sequence off and hits you with the lariat, you're likely done unless you are Tanahashi, Omega or Naito. Might be a bullshit explanation but I'm almost certain you could pick flaws and explanations for those flaws for anyone if you try hard enough to find them. What I think of the wrist clutch spot is that it's simply Okada trying to transition into another rainmaker as it almost always comes after the weaker version of the move and he has to do two to put the opponent away. I don't think it's meant as a significant spot or anything, just a signal of intent at that point in time. I mean, if you intend on landing a second rainmaker after the first, you aren't going to let go anyway. It's only logical that he does it more and more if he's discovered it as a tactic. I don't really look too much into finisher protection or spam since it's been a common theme with people like Tanahashi and Nakamura.
    I have noticed that most of the first rainmakers tend to have less force behind them, so lets say I buy that defence from you. The point still remains that this 'soft' rainmaker kickout spot is being used in 90% of Okada's singles matches now, so this year has taught me to not react to the first rainmaker because it's gonna be kicked out of. Same with the holding of the wrist, sure I can see the logic kayfabe wise why Okada holds onto the wrist, but he first brought that out against Tanahashi in a big match to emphasize how tough Tanahashi was to beat and how he's his biggest rival to date. It was much more than a tactic, it was symbol of that feud. Now instead of Okada busting it out for his true big matches where it would get a big reaction, he's busting it out every fucking match as a signature move. He doesn't need to do it in a meaningless match with Sanada in the G1~!. It's called diminishing returns, and this is Okada's biggest problem to me, he can't reign in his tendency to excess most of the time.

    Dylan and I used to be consistent on the Boma Ye and HFF being overused, and you've seen me rag on Naito recently too, so it's not Okada bias. I'm sick of those spots being used lazily to take a match to the supposed next level.

    Okada matches being 'samey' is something I don't really buy into. I think he's had different matches since Marufuji at KOPW last year. Omega to Suzuki to Tiger Mask to Shibata to Fale to Omega II to the G1, the matches have been different for the most part IMO. If you're saying match structure/performance is the same, that's fine, but clearly, it isn't an issue for the target audience otherwise NJPW would be stagnating.
    Ultimately a lot of those matches were feeling out process, crossbody over the railings, Okada gets his ass kicked by his opponents usual tactics, mini-comeback into elbow drop-zoom out camera-soft rainmaker kickout or counter, heel puts on more heat, fighting spirit spots, hot closing stretch, Okada survives opponents finisher, rainmaker counter into rainmaker hit, hold wrist, another rainmaker and it's over.

    ...dive

    To me, Okada gives the NJPW fans what they want and expect to see time and time again. He fits their ideal vision of what a 'wrestler' is with his personality, his look and everything he does in the ring. I can't say he's a bad wrestler for that. At the end of the day, I find the dude entertaining and I find his matches entertaining without the need to dissect his matches, really. That's all that matters to me. The only actual complaint I can properly agree on, to an extent, is that Okada's knee selling is atrocious sometimes. But it doesn't really ruin a match for me. I still enjoyed Okada vs Suzuki and Okada vs Omega II very much.

    TLDR: Okada is exactly what the NJPW fans want and his matches are exactly what they're into. I wouldn't take away from him for fitting to exactly what the domestic audience wants.
    Is he exactly what they want though? sounds like more arenas want Naito more than they want Okada

    vs Sexsmith at Progress 53 (either I'm missing something or somehow Sexsmith is really good and didn't show it in this match. Not convinced I'd like him. Lol at Dunne hitting crew members.)
    vs Trent Seven, BT Gunn and Wolfgang at Shug's Hoose Party
    vs Dijak at Progress 50
    vs Haskins and Mandrews at Progress 48
    vs Joe Hendry at WCPW Loaded
    vs ZSJ at OTT Invasion Supershow
    I've actually not seen the vast majority of these so can't really comment. They don't sound like matches that on paper show his WOTYC credentials, although his match with Sabre Jr in Progress at the end of last year was dope.

    But as I've said - not really emotionally invested in Dunne enough to properly compare him to Okada. All I can do is say who I'm entertained more by and that's Okada right now. That, ultimately, just comes down to the sort of wrestling product I prefer. I don't think Dunne's anywhere near a bad wrestler though.
    That's fair enough.
    Last edited by Ed; 08-10-2017 at 07:11 PM.

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    Re: WC's Best Wrestler Tournament 2017 Semi Finals - Pete Dunne Vs Kazuchika Okada

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    I think most people who watch New Japan would consider Tanahashi one of the greatest of his generation and Okada hasn't outshadowed him yet. His 6th title reign from 12-13 was delivering quality main event after quality main event. Even if people only hopped in during this 5 year boom when Okada was first getting his main event push, they've still seen 5 years of incredible wrestling from the former ace.
    Trying to keep this reply from reaching TGR levels Maybe I'll just start an Okada "ACE OF THE DECADE" thread for this to be discussed and then I can take a huff and leave the forum........

    When all is said and done and Okada's run has played out, he'll be given much more credit than Tanahashi will IMO. Tanahashi won't get as much credit or a light shone upon him because he was largely a product of the transition/darkness era for NJPW. Just my opinion. Doesn't really mean much obviously but I do think Okada is going to end up getting way more credit and praise than Tanahashi in years to come. I would have liked to have seen their feud begin nowadays. It'd be even better. Basically, I think Okada is more prone to being remembered over Tanahashi. Tanahashi's the guy who laid the foundations for the conquest. Okada is the one who will (should) conquer. Tanahashi's going to be considered one of the greatest right now, easily, but I don't think he will get the respect he deserves for it, at the end of the day.

    Not sure why the question of which wrestler is the better wrestler is coming down to 'they're too unlike each other character wise to compare'. How many wrestlers in this tournament of 64 have the same character? Hasn't seemed to be an issue for you before this matchup.
    I was responding to Nicky saying that Okada wishes he was more of a dick like Dunne as well as Zero saying Dunne's better than Okada in all facets of pro wrestling. You can't compare their characters like for like so I don't see either point as valid when making a judgment on either or when comparing them. You can't say Okada wishes he was a dick like Dunne when taking in the character differences noted above and you can't say Dunne is better than Okada at playing his character alignment because the alignments really don't match up. Vice versa too, obviously. You can certainly say which character you prefer and all that stuff, though. That whole quote is more of a response to criticism of Okada's character or rather how you can't compare their characters when judging them in a contest. I didn't say I was judging either of them based off of character or using character comparisons to judge any other matchups in this tournament. I've voted the entire tournament, more or less, based on who I've enjoyed watching more. Critically comparing characters, match structures, promos and all that stuff feels very silly to me in matchups where they're in different products catering to different audiences with different tastes. You can't say one is worse than the other for that reason. You can certainly say one doesn't do it to your liking as much as the other, though. Small differences, I guess. I assume that's ultimately what people mean in their criticism anyway. The Kojima stuff also surprised me because people don't start calling Tanahashi inconsistent or find criticism for him when he randomly works heelish

    I can't argue with you preferring Okada's character to Dunne's because it's personal preference.
    Plans can change

    Spoiler:





    I have noticed that most of the first rainmakers tend to have less force behind them, so lets say I buy that defence from you. The point still remains that this 'soft' rainmaker kickout spot is being used in 90% of Okada's singles matches now, so this year has taught me to not react to the first rainmaker because it's gonna be kicked out of. Same with the holding of the wrist, sure I can see the logic kayfabe wise why Okada holds onto the wrist, but he first brought that out against Tanahashi in a big match to emphasize how tough Tanahashi was to beat and how he's his biggest rival to date. It was much more than a tactic, it was symbol of that feud. Now instead of Okada busting it out for his true big matches where it would get a big reaction, he's busting it out every fucking match as a signature move. He doesn't need to do it in a meaningless match with Sanada in the G1~!. It's called diminishing returns, and this is Okada's biggest problem to me, he can't reign in his tendency to excess most of the time.

    Dylan and I used to be consistent on the Boma Ye and HFF being overused, and you've seen me rag on Naito recently too, so it's not Okada bias. I'm sick of those spots being used lazily to take a match to the supposed next level.
    Yeah you're right on the tactic thing. It's like whenever someone starts using a new finisher or signature constantly. Obviously it's bullshit because in kayfabe explanations are far too meta for anyone to really care about. I just don't see a problem with it to the point that it makes me not enjoy his matches. I just view it as a part of the sequence, really. That's why I said it really comes down to what you look for in wrestling and how you judge it. It doesn't take away my enjoyment of a match but it might for someone else if they place emphasis on that sort of stuff when it comes to enjoying it. I get it was a big moment against Tanahashi. I don't think it's cheapened or anything by what comes after.

    Ultimately a lot of those matches were feeling out process, crossbody over the railings, Okada gets his ass kicked by his opponents usual tactics, mini-comeback into elbow drop-zoom out camera-soft rainmaker kickout or counter, heel puts on more heat, fighting spirit spots, hot closing stretch, Okada survives opponents finisher, rainmaker counter into rainmaker hit, hold wrist, another rainmaker and it's over.

    ...dive
    Well, when you put it like that, then it's easy to read into as being the 'same'. But I'm almost certain I could go through another wrestler's list of matches this year from NJPW and say the same thing about them too. Probably quite a few of them for the most part. I guess I view the difference in those matches being due to the difference in opponents and the different stories going on. It's not really a criticism I can argue against because, again, it's largely about what you base your enjoyment on and how you interpret wrestling. I feel the matches are different enough for me to enjoy them, simply put.

    Is he exactly what they want though? sounds like more arenas want Naito more than they want Okada
    Both are incredibly over. Naito is what some fans want, Okada is what others want. Both appeal to different demographics for the most part, I think. I'd say Okada's more popular with female audience and likely younger people whilst Naito is likely to be popular with those that identify with him in terms of being shunned and stuff. Not saying those are the only people they appeal to. But I think as NJPW's audience expands, Okada is likely to get more fans. I'm yet to be convinced Naito has the appeal Okada does when pushed heavily and put into the top spot for a lengthy amount of time. Okada and Tanahashi are the two responsible for how popular NJPW is getting right now - the fact it's growing in popularity rather than stagnating signals to me that Okada is doing everything right to appeal to the target audience. Basically, I think Okada's personality and character has way more mainstream appeal than Naito's... and I also think Okada is way better than Naito as a performer. I didn't say that Okada was the only person they wanted though. But he is definitely one of the top guys for the reason that he fits the mould of what NJPW fans want. NJPW fans are into guys with large personalities, cool characters, look the part and people they can identify with or relate to as well as someone they'd want to know in real life. On top of delivering great performances, of course. In other words: be a superstar. Don't be a lemon. I could be totally wrong here on everything I've said but that's how I view it.

    Who would you want to be the face of your company long term?

    I'll also say that Naito bombed big time when he was receiving his megapush whilst Okada was able to get over. People can argue he was booked super strong but you don't just win fans over with good booking. Especially when you have a shit match with your shitty eyebrow dye job against YOSHI-HASHI before facing super over champ Tanahashi. We'll see if Naito can remain as popular as he is when he wins the belt at WK12 and how his character transforms. I'm actually super curious to see if Okada's douchebaggery is going into overdrive for a reason...


    ---

    By the by, don't think you hate or have bias against Okada tbh. I know Zero definitely does cause he's pissed Goto/YOSHI-HASHI aren't in Okada's place RAINING STRONG STYLE ALL OVER THE WORLD ORRRAAAA SHIBATA-SAN I guess if you dislike or not high on someone, you are going to be able to spot flaws more than someone you like. Especially if you're someone who likes to super dissect the inner workings of wrestling matches and all that shit.


    Just kidding, Zero....

    Spoiler:






    edit: I forgot to add that you can tell when someone has anti-Okada bias distorting their view when they try to argue he isn't a draw pre-2017 or that he uses his "I donate to charity when I win" spiel to get good booking. I will also add that Naito and Okada are slightly different in that Naito isn't being built as the Ace so his main story has a shorter amount of timespan than Okada's. Naito's current story is culminating (after 4-5 years) whilst Okada's is only really beginning (his story is gonna be 10+ years)
    Last edited by RainShaker; 08-11-2017 at 12:26 PM.
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