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Thread: General Football Discussion 2017-18

  1. #21
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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    Now I wouldn't mind that I it was the champions league but it's Europa while getting more credibility and notariety each year it's not the top cup.
    With the added incentive of qualifying for the UCL, I think it makes it very worthwhile.

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    The reason I don't really see the Europa League has having that significant of an impact is that most of the problems listed are things Arsenal are already very used to due to constant participation in the Champions League. That's a huge part of why I'm downplaying it. For a club like Southampton, Tottenham a few years ago, or even Liverpool to some extent.... that constant experience of being in Europe isn't there for those clubs. I'm not slagging on Liverpool, but over the past decade, they have missed out on playing in Europe almost as often as they have been in either the CL or Europa League. That was pretty my whole point - Arsenal are already used to deal with a lot of the factors that seem to or could have a negative impact. Comparing how it will impact them by pointing to a club that had zero experience in Europe isn't really the most valid points of comparison.

    So let's see the factors that can/will have an impact....

    -travel to far flung parts of Europe. Happens in Champions League. You have a wider variety of potential opponents from smaller nations in the Europa League, but the key word there is potential.
    -poor pitches. This happens in both, and its luck of the draw. Look at Liverpool's group a couple years ago - Rubin Kazan, FC Sion, Bordeaux. Playing in Russia is always dicey but Kazan has a nice new arena and as long as you are playing there before the winter, the pitches are often good. So its not like Liverpool were playing on bare dirty patches in Azerbaijan.
    -need for a deep squad. Unless Arsenal do a massive clear-out, they have a big squad. They have a handful of players who didn't play enough last season. Lucas performed and scored when he got matches, but he almost never did. Mertesacker didn't play, even when healthy. Elneny didn't get enough matches. More rotation could actually be a positive, as it could mitigate a bit of the standard Arsenal February swoon - player over-use in the first half of the season is potentially a factor there.
    -Thursday-Saturday match combos. Arsenal dealt with Sunday-Tuesday match combos on occasion, so its not that different. Arguably a bit worse because you travel, then have your league match. But still... not entirely different.
    -additional matches. Well, the Group Stage is always six matches and Arsenal always make it to the First Knockout Round, so that's eight Champions League matches every year. Add in 2 more depending on if they needed to go through a qualifier.

    As I said originally, I'm not going to be surprised if Arsenal do have a further slide this season. But I don't think it will be down to the additional burden of the Europa League. I think that will be a small factor. I think Wenger's lack of "doing tactics", the inevitable injury crisis, defensive lapses, inability to defend set pieces, conceding too many penalties, failure to manage player fitness.... These factors that are not going to disappear while have just as much or a bigger impact on Arsenal doing as poor or worse in the league this season.
    Last edited by Big Papa; 07-13-2017 at 10:18 AM.

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    Now I wouldn't mind that I it was the champions league but it's Europa while getting more credibility and notariety each year it's not the top cup.
    Yeah, why would anyone care or try if its not the top cup. I mean, would anyone actually celebrate or care about wining the EFL Cup?

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papa View Post
    Yeah, why would anyone care or try if its not the top cup. I mean, would anyone actually celebrate or care about wining the EFL Cup?
    not what mean. I meant that with eruropa league, your league form drops and if you don't win the europa league and you are out of the top 4 then all those games are worthless and you don't get anything out of it but if you get far in the champions league it won't affect your league form as much and you receive higher praise and you get higher money and value.
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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    not what mean. I meant that with eruropa league, your league form drops and if you don't win the europa league and you are out of the top 4 then all those games are worthless and you don't get anything out of it but if you get far in the champions league it won't affect your league form as much and you receive higher praise and you get higher money and value.
    I was being facetious. Cheeky. Know its not what you meant.

    You are saying "your league form drops" like its absolute undeniable fact and can never be avoided. That's false. It happens sometimes, to some clubs. Its like you took Mourinho's excuses last year and swallowed it as undeniable gospel. Why is it just the Europa League and not the Champions League, when most of the potential negative impacts apply to the participation in both? Why just English clubs when other clubs in other leagues face similar issues?

    If you want to convince me or anyone else that is undeniable fact that Europa League means you do worse in the league, then please start by explaining why the factors I listed a couple of posts up are so significantly more impactful for a club participating in the Europa League than one playing in the Champions League.

    And the Europa League brings money. Much like participating in the Champions League when you don't really have any hope of winning it, it brings in money. CL is more lucrative, but Europa League brings in quite a bit now. It also brings prestige and profile. Sponsors like it. Fans like having European evenings - unless you are Spurs fans, and then they don't give a fuck apparently.

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papa View Post
    I was being facetious. Cheeky. Know its not what you meant.

    You are saying "your league form drops" like its absolute undeniable fact and can never be avoided. That's false. It happens sometimes, to some clubs. Its like you took Mourinho's excuses last year and swallowed it as undeniable gospel. Why is it just the Europa League and not the Champions League, when most of the potential negative impacts apply to the participation in both? Why just English clubs when other clubs in other leagues face similar issues?

    If you want to convince me or anyone else that is undeniable fact that Europa League means you do worse in the league, then please start by explaining why the factors I listed a couple of posts up are so significantly more impactful for a club participating in the Europa League than one playing in the Champions League.

    And the Europa League brings money. Much like participating in the Champions League when you don't really have any hope of winning it, it brings in money. CL is more lucrative, but Europa League brings in quite a bit now. It also brings prestige and profile. Sponsors like it. Fans like having European evenings - unless you are Spurs fans, and then they don't give a fuck apparently.
    No it's not fact but it's a strong possibility.
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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    No it's not fact but it's a strong possibility.
    Again, based on what factors? What are the major differences between Champions League and Europa League that make it a strong possibility?

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papa View Post
    Again, based on what factors? What are the major differences between Champions League and Europa League that make it a strong possibility?
    Expirence. That's something that arsenal fans will get. you may think that their no diffenece but there is.
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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    Expirence. That's something that arsenal fans will get. you may think that their no diffenece but there is.
    *Experience

    I could take your statements more seriously if you would actually try to justify and explain. Just saying "experience" is not an answer.

    Again, I realize that Manchester United underperformed last year to what they wanted and Mourinho blamed the Europa League. I get that. But logically, the experience of one club doesn't not automatically apply to every club. By quick assessment, Manchester United only played in the Europa League twice in the past decade, and once where you dropped from the CL group stage so hardly a full run in the Europa anyway, so forgive me if I don't take that to mean you guys are absolute experts in the process and its impact. So again, if you want your opinion to be given any weight and taken seriously at all, explain so I can understand. So "can get".

    Also saw some horribly sad news today. The young Ajax player who collapsed last week, Nouri, has suffered severe and permanent brain damage.

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Okay Thursday-Sunday is so much different to playing Wednesday-Saturday.

    In theory it shouldn't be but it is. The main things are the travel and that but for me as saw by Man Utd last season it is fixture pile-up at the end of the season.

    If you win the Europa League you will have to play 15 extra matches. Add that to the 38 in the Premier League plus potential EFL Cup and FA Cup runs and you are looking at a 60 game season. That isn't far off two seasons in one and I don't care what team you are, nobody has the depth to be able to cope with that physically or mentally.

    With Arsenal never playing in it before it will be different. There aren't any nice trips to Munich or Barcelona, you could be off to Albania or Russia.

    I usually agree with you on most things Big Papa but on this I can't after watching what it was like for United last time out.

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papa View Post
    *Experience

    I could take your statements more seriously if you would actually try to justify and explain. Just saying "experience" is not an answer.

    Again, I realize that Manchester United underperformed last year to what they wanted and Mourinho blamed the Europa League. I get that. But logically, the experience of one club doesn't not automatically apply to every club. By quick assessment, Manchester United only played in the Europa League twice in the past decade, and once where you dropped from the CL group stage so hardly a full run in the Europa anyway, so forgive me if I don't take that to mean you guys are absolute experts in the process and its impact. So again, if you want your opinion to be given any weight and taken seriously at all, explain so I can understand. So "can get".

    Also saw some horribly sad news today. The young Ajax player who collapsed last week, Nouri, has suffered severe and permanent brain damage.
    Wait you want me to explain what I mean by experience? I watched United play Europa league and United lost 31 points in the games before and after Europa league games. that's my experience, very simple.
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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by Order View Post
    Okay Thursday-Sunday is so much different to playing Wednesday-Saturday.

    In theory it shouldn't be but it is. The main things are the travel and that but for me as saw by Man Utd last season it is fixture pile-up at the end of the season.

    If you win the Europa League you will have to play 15 extra matches. Add that to the 38 in the Premier League plus potential EFL Cup and FA Cup runs and you are looking at a 60 game season. That isn't far off two seasons in one and I don't care what team you are, nobody has the depth to be able to cope with that physically or mentally.

    With Arsenal never playing in it before it will be different. There aren't any nice trips to Munich or Barcelona, you could be off to Albania or Russia.

    I usually agree with you on most things Big Papa but on this I can't after watching what it was like for United last time out.
    Thank you for at least clarifying.

    The 14 additional matches could definitely be an added burden. But Champions League was always at least 8 matches. 10 when Arsenal had to do a qualifying round. And going back a few years, when they could actually make it past the Round of 16, it could be 12 or more matches. Now how much of an extra burden additional matches adds depends on factors like success in other cup competitions and whether league matches have been postponed due to other clubs having cup runs, weather, etc. So it definitely CAN cause a fixture congestion... not that it automatically WILL. Again, it depends on factors. And that was pretty much what I was getting at.

    Same thing with where you are playing. Yeah, you can end up playing Group Stage matches in Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. Even in some of the lesser stadiums of Ukraine, Croatia, etc. But looking at the groups over the past few years, its not like you are certain to end up in one of those groups. Group F last year - Spain, Italy, Belgium, Austria. Group D 2 years ago - Italy, Denmark, Poland, Belgium. So once again, it depends on what kind of group you get. And whether its clubs from bigger nations or smaller ones, the facilities - including the pitch - could be pretty good, or they could be awful. Travelling to the Czech Republic to play in a tiny old stadium is different than playing a non-league side in the FA Cup.... but there are similarities as the same time. And the later matches in the latter rounds, when the fixtures could be piling up (again, could) are typically where you against bigger clubs from bigger nations, so the "travelling far to tiny countries" dynamic isn't really at play as much.

    Wednesday-Saturday is not the same as Thursday-Saturday. But, if I'm not mistaken, Arsenal did have a few Sunday-Tuesday combos over the past couple of years. Again, its not the same because of where the travel falls.... but its not entirely unknown to the squad to have two matches in 3 days.

    I'm not saying that the Europa League is the same as the Champions League. Or that it can't throw up additional challenges. Just that most of the challenges are at least similar, and the degree of those challenges - and therefore how much impact they can and will have - is dependent on factors like the draw. And some of those can be mitigated by the manager and his choices - by memory, Mourinho didn't use quite few players, especially younger ones, when he could have earlier in the season, which could have mitigated the impact of those fixture congestion later.

    I just find it odd that there is now this idea that playing in Europa League is going to have a negative impact... yet that doesn't affect clubs from other nations the same way. Sure, clubs that aren't used to international travel or don't have the squad depth to cope will be impacted - absolutely. But for English clubs, its like Europa League is seen as a negative. "oh, now you have to deal with this...."

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    Wait you want me to explain what I mean by experience? I watched United play Europa league and United lost 31 points in the games before and after Europa league games. that's my experience, very simple.
    So you are saying that what happened to one club AUTOMATICALLY and INEVITABLY must happen to another. That there cannot be any factors that would affect or mitigate the impact. Okay, I appreciate you explaining your logic.

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    can't believe Leigh Griffiths got a yellow card for having a bottle of buckfast launched at him

    refs.





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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Really? Hahha strangest yellow card ever?
    I have a plan so cunning......

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18






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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    The fucking north man. What can you say?
    The most amazing thing about this recent conversation is that I've learned AON is even more of a waste of space than I thought he was previously

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Would have been great if he kept complaining and the ref gave him a second yellow.

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Also, John Terry has been appointed captain at Aston Villa.....Thoughts?

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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by Declandimi101 View Post
    Also, John Terry has been appointed captain at Aston Villa.....Thoughts?
    Even the hardest of Villa fans would have expected that with all his experience and knowledge. We may see a similar thing at Everton with Rooney.
    I have a plan so cunning......

  20. #40
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    Re: General Football Discussion 2017-18

    Quote Originally Posted by Declandimi101 View Post
    Would have been great if he kept complaining and the ref gave him a second yellow.
    What would be great about that? It would've just added to the shitstorm that was the referees performance. The ref was an out and out disgrace in that match - don't mind the Linfield fans, they've always been nasty fucks and a poxy club and this was always going to happen - but the referee was all over the gaf and that yellow was one of the worst things I've ever seen in football. I'm all for good old fashioned sectarian hatred between rival football clubs by way of songs, chants, flags etc. but I've always thought projectiles (which just to be clear about - can and have come from both sides) are crossing the line. They should be fined severely.
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