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Thread: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

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    'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    http://njpwworld.com/p/s_series_00413_2_10

    Because I presume this wouldn't get any attention in the Official Puro Discussion from the people who don't usually watch NJPW. If you haven't heard, Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega was the main event of NJPW's biggest show of the year, Wrestle Kingdom 11, and it's been cited by many as being one of, if not, the greatest match of all time as well as one of only two matches Dave Meltzer has ever given a 6 star rating too (hence a lot of the attention it has gotten). If you want to see what all the hype is about, here's your chance. NJPW is offering the 'Best Match Ever' free for 7 days. That is January 31st to February 7th. It's a lengthy match but I'd recommend you watch it to the end. I don't personally think it's the best introduction to NJPW but it is what it is.

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega]

    "Best match ever", eh?

    Would anyone care to offer me some spoiler-free reasons why that is? A tad skeptical about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diksting
    You can't have a reasonable discussion about serious topics with people like Marketh around.

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega]

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Ecstasy View Post
    "Best match ever", eh?

    Would anyone care to offer me some spoiler-free reasons why that is? A tad skeptical about that.
    I guess it would be harsh of me to say 'because Meltz said so.'

    I don't think it's the best match ever but it's the click bait NJPW is using and it was intentionally in apostrophes for that reason. It's a great match for sure though. The last fifteen minutes of this match are pretty high intensity and suck you into caring about the end result, even if you aren't necessarily a fan of either man or know the story. It's a payoff of a year long build. Goes the distance (eh, some people see that as a necessity of a GOAT match). Omega in particular is pretty special in this one, some cite it as one of the best wrestling performances on his end.

    I would prefer to defer the answer to that question to maybe someone like EgoFantastico or The Natural.

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega]

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Ecstasy View Post
    "Best match ever", eh?

    Would anyone care to offer me some spoiler-free reasons why that is? A tad skeptical about that.
    Not that it should need to be said, but it does given the subject matter: this is all opinion.

    Great psychology and pacing between two men who go to incredible lengths to give us one of the best matches ever put together. The last half is exceptional and the slow build to it is necessary to get the crowd where they need to be (imagine a roller coaster hitting top speed the second you buckle yourself in...) given its place on the card and the match that came before it (Tanahashi/Naito, also stellar). Smart use of 'withholding' certain things and then eventually getting them later, great spots, etc. Also both men looked willing to literally die for the title, which doesn't happen often.

    Dave Meltzer insinuated that it was the best match ever and Steve Austin knew that going in, still came out calling it one of the best ever despite amazingly high expectations. Try not to let expectations ruin the spectacle if you can.

    Also it should be up for 6 days not 7.
    [save]


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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Natural View Post
    Not that it should need to be said, but it does given the subject matter: this is all opinion.

    Great psychology and pacing between two men who go to incredible lengths to give us one of the best matches ever put together. The last half is exceptional and the slow build to it is necessary to get the crowd where they need to be (imagine a roller coaster hitting top speed the second you buckle yourself in...) given its place on the card and the match that came before it (Tanahashi/Naito, also stellar). Smart use of 'withholding' certain things and then eventually getting them later, great spots, etc. Also both men looked willing to literally die for the title, which doesn't happen often.

    Dave Meltzer insinuated that it was the best match ever and Steve Austin knew that going in, still came out calling it one of the best ever despite amazingly high expectations. Try not to let expectations ruin the spectacle if you can.

    Also it should be up for 6 days not 7.
    NJPW probably insinuating it should be 7 stars.

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega]

    A flawless match and one I'd recommend to anyone who isn't familiar with Omega. Bubba Ray seems to think Cena vs AJ was better, and I find that highly debatable.



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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggy View Post
    A flawless match and one I'd recommend to anyone who isn't familiar with Omega. Bubba Ray seems to think Cena vs AJ was better, and I find that highly debatable.
    Rumble spoilers.

    Spoiler:

    I enjoyed Cena/Styles very much *before* Cena took a Styles Clash, jumped up to his feet within a matter of seconds and ran over to the ropes to counter the Phenomonal Forearm.
    [save]


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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega]

    For what it's worth Jiggy I thought Cena/AJ was better, and neither would be my current MOTYC.

    Good idea by NJ. I do think if you're someone that hasn't been following these guys and you drop into the match cold after hearing the high praise, some stuff is going to go over your head. Stuff like the story behind the table teases and the meaning behind Okada holding onto Omega's hand after one of the rainmakers etc. Yet it is a match I think everyone should try and check out because the end of the match is killer and if you like what you see you might turn into a fan of current Japanese wrestling. You guys should also check out Naito/Tanahashi too

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    Like I said it's certainly debatable. Both were 5 star matches . Okada vs Omega is definitely an early candidate for MOTY.

    Ed I'm interested to hear what matches this year you place over either of the two.



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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega]

    Oh and Naito/Tanahashi was almost as good. The last two matches on the card cemented this as one of the best Wrestle Kingdoms I've ever seen.



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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggy View Post
    Like I said it's certainly debatable. Both were 5 star matches . Okada vs Omega is definitely an early candidate for MOTY.

    Ed I'm interested to hear what matches this year you place over either of the two.
    Nakajima vs. Sugiura, Maybach/Shiozaki vs. Kotoge/Marufuji, Naito vs. Tanahashi are what I have ahead for sure so far. Behind on my viewing tho.

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    Nakajima/Sugiura, The tag are behind for me based on the fact that the story isnt there compared to Okada/Omega. Okada/Omegas charisma and promo work really made this match out to be a spectacle. I also thought the tag match had a period where it was just boring. If NOAH guys had more charisma, the matches would be more gripping and judged on something more than just an in ring basis.

    Bubba's opinion is highy laughable - it's fine if you think AJ/Cena was better than this but to cite selling and psychology and staying in the ring as reasons then you are out of your mind. Okada/Omega has fantastic selling and psychology that blows Cena/Styles out of the water.

    The match is one of the best ever because of the story, the pacing, the drama it creates and just the sheer insanity of what you see in terms of moves. People can say its too long or slow but if you're citing NOAH as being better than I feel like you can't use that as a negative when their matches suffer from the same issue alot of the time. Plus, the Tokyo Dome crowd had already splurged their load at Tana vs Naito, they really needed time to recover.

    Overall, it's one of the best matches ever imo. A masterful performance by Kenny Omega and an absolutely fantastic story told - Kazuchika Okada's first title defence as the Ace, in a year where he's had trouble establishing that fact, against an opponent who, a year ago, was losing to KUSHIDA at the Dome. The rise of Omega has been great as a story and WK11 being the culmination of his year was a superb climax.

    Shit was banging. It's not a match I would show to someone trying to get into NJPW though. You really need to grasp the story before watching this tbh.


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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggy
    Ed I'm interested to hear what matches this year you place over either of the two.
    My top 3 right now are Tanahashi Vs Naito from WK11, Bate Vs Dunne from the WWE:UK tournament finals and Hero Vs Sabre Jr from Evolve 77 (Hero's final indy match). All great matches from bell to bell that all tell different types of stories in different environments.

    Jon I enjoyed Nakajima/Sugiura but it drags and doesn't come close to reaching the heights of Omega/Okada, and that's me saying that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shake
    Bubba's opinion is highy laughable
    Bully Ray's argument was shockingly bad, since WWE dropped him he's saying anything to grab attention. He's a tennis racket away from being Jim Cornette.

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    *shrugs* Didn't feel the drag. Of either that or the tag match.

    Nevertheless, there's no way I'd rank Omega/Okada in my top matches of the year let alone in a best ever conversation. Though if you asked me to cite a best ever match, I'd also struggle to say anything (Cena/Danielson is still my favorite match on first view but I haven't rewatched it since and really tend not to rewatch matches so it mostly becomes a: what did you think was best on first viewing discussion for me). I don't care much for promo work ahead of match, in all honesty, I do think a match will have a great impact on if there's story preceding it so certainly that helps Omega/Okada. You could always say that the hype behind Okada/Omega and knowing the result beforehand prevented me from enjoying it as the GOAT match it's reputed to be but other people knew the result beforehand and still cite it as GOAT so maybe not. It just didn't do it for me. It was a great match 100% like no doubt about it. To me, its a 4*+ like Nakajima/Sugiura and the tag match which I also rated those. I didn't have the hindrance of expectations, knowing the results or what I felt was 30 minutes of drag in Omega/Okada, you can cite the preceding match if you want and you can say Nakajima/Sugiura or the tag matches dragged as well but it never felt like that for me. To further add, those matches were 30 minutes in total versus again, what I felt were 30 minutes of drag in Omega/Okada before we got to the really good stuff. I also think that a match should also be able to stand on its own, so when people frequently cite that you need to consider Naito/Tanahashi's preceding match and that the match needed that 30 minutes of build-up, *shrug*, you can consider that in your criticism, and fair enough, but it doesn't stop it from hindering the match for me.

    Looking forward to Hero/ZSJ now.

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    The crowd needing time to come down is such a BS excuse. That crowd was electric for Goto & Shibata and somehow didn't die for Tana/Naito. They died because the match was incredibly lackluster for a vast majority of it. And just stylistically it was a heartless, & heatless match. They weren't working body parts, it wasn't a true build to anything (both of which Naito/Tana did brilliantly), they weren't having momentum swings or telling a story of oneupsmanship (Goto/Shibata did those things and was also a better match), they were just filling time because Omega cares more about star ratings than storytelling and wants to have an artificially epic match. That said, his performance was admittedly great, unlike his opponent, who I thought was bland & lifeless until the VERY end, and as I said in that thread by that point I was just hoping it would end by the time they turned it on. Ultimately the length is a superficial criticism of any match. It's what they did with it.

    The tag match from NOAH did ALL of those things listed and I'm totally with you Jon, it wasn't boring to me either, and the story of Kotoge rising up was so strong to boot. Would watch that again 10 times out of 10 over Okada/Omega. Unfortunately the stakes weren't as high, the stage wasn't as big, & there weren't 10 finishing sequences so I guess it was boring. Nak/Sugs actually did have some of those problems and never reached the heights of Okada/Omega, but I would say was a more well rounded & less egregious match as a whole but could go either way. Neither are MOTYCs really and the GOAT claims would be truly confusing were it in another ring, but WWE & NJPW get the benefit of the doubt so I accept it.

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Legend View Post
    *shrugs* Didn't feel the drag. Of either that or the tag match.

    Nevertheless, there's no way I'd rank Omega/Okada in my top matches of the year let alone in a best ever conversation. Though if you asked me to cite a best ever match, I'd also struggle to say anything (Cena/Danielson is still my favorite match on first view but I haven't rewatched it since and really tend not to rewatch matches so it mostly becomes a: what did you think was best on first viewing discussion for me). I don't care much for promo work ahead of match, in all honesty, I do think a match will have a great impact on if there's story preceding it so certainly that helps Omega/Okada. You could always say that the hype behind Okada/Omega and knowing the result beforehand prevented me from enjoying it as the GOAT match it's reputed to be but other people knew the result beforehand and still cite it as GOAT so maybe not. It just didn't do it for me. It was a great match 100% like no doubt about it. To me, its a 4*+ like Nakajima/Sugiura and the tag match which I also rated those. I didn't have the hindrance of expectations, knowing the results or what I felt was 30 minutes of drag in Omega/Okada, you can cite the preceding match if you want and you can say Nakajima/Sugiura or the tag matches dragged as well but it never felt like that for me. To further add, those matches were 30 minutes in total versus again, what I felt were 30 minutes of drag in Omega/Okada before we got to the really good stuff. I also think that a match should also be able to stand on its own, so when people frequently cite that you need to consider Naito/Tanahashi's preceding match and that the match needed that 30 minutes of build-up, *shrug*, you can consider that in your criticism, and fair enough, but it doesn't stop it from hindering the match for me.

    Looking forward to Hero/ZSJ now.
    I'm just curious whether you review matches based on a pure work rate/in ring or if you take stories into account and whatnot. To me, I think the opinion of matches vary wildly depending on these sorts of things. I feel like I could watch a match between two guys who could put on a good to great match but the story not being there tips it away from being a truly phenomenal one.

    Understandable if it didn't drag for you. Everyone likes different things. Just think (especially after rewatching it) there's a few bits where they could've really done with not making it feel so elongated. Overall, the in ring stuff was really good and the headbutt was awesome. I wasn't super invested in the match in terms of the characters - Shiozaki, Taniguchi don't exactly set the world on fire with any sort of charisma and are dull characters for the most part, Shiozaki's great in ring though. Marufuji is Marufuji and i'm a mark for the guy so there's that. Kotoge's story is cool but I'm not super invested in him beforehand so the story isn't super important to me but he did well and he looked like he belonged after a while. I don't really know what to say about expectations and shit cause that's more or less on you for knowing the result beforehand and letting expectations affect your view going into the match. Ultimately, Okada/Omega will divide opinion for the rest of time. It absolutely could have been shorter but I don't think anyone can doubt the story it told/the story it had going into it or the top, top physical performances of both men. Big criticism of Okada is that he's arguably a 'second half' wrestler to most but he does extremely well with facial expression and a lot of little nuances. I've already said I can't compare it to Naito/Tanahashi, both just felt supremely different to me and both were out of this world. It's like... how do you rank one five star match above the other?

    50/50 on matches standing on their own - somewhat agree but then there are quite a good few that might suffer because you're not taking previous encounters and previous story into account -- what if the match has extremely well done references to past encounters that add to the story occurring in the match, you're not going to get the full picture or be able to fully appreciate it. It's not the case with Omega/Okada here (in terms of why people are criticising it) but it's something to consider.

    Ultimately, I like that Okada/Omega is causing discussion. It doesn't matter if you like it or dislike it but the fact it is getting attention is very, very good. It's also cool to see people passionately discuss wrestling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    The crowd needing time to come down is such a BS excuse. That crowd was electric for Goto & Shibata and somehow didn't die for Tana/Naito. They died because the match was incredibly lackluster for a vast majority of it. And just stylistically it was a heartless, & heatless match. They weren't working body parts, it wasn't a true build to anything (both of which Naito/Tana did brilliantly), they weren't having momentum swings or telling a story of oneupsmanship (Goto/Shibata did those things and was also a better match), they were just filling time because Omega cares more about star ratings than storytelling and wants to have an artificially epic match. That said, his performance was admittedly great, unlike his opponent, who I thought was bland & lifeless until the VERY end, and as I said in that thread by that point I was just hoping it would end by the time they turned it on. Ultimately the length is a superficial criticism of any match. It's what they did with it.

    The tag match from NOAH did ALL of those things listed and I'm totally with you Jon, it wasn't boring to me either, and the story of Kotoge rising up was so strong to boot. Would watch that again 10 times out of 10 over Okada/Omega. Unfortunately the stakes weren't as high, the stage wasn't as big, & there weren't 10 finishing sequences so I guess it was boring. Nak/Sugs actually did have some of those problems and never reached the heights of Okada/Omega, but I would say was a more well rounded & less egregious match as a whole but could go either way. Neither are MOTYCs really and the GOAT claims would be truly confusing were it in another ring, but WWE & NJPW get the benefit of the doubt so I accept it.

    All I have to say to that is that I thought the Tanahashi/Naito match garnered much more of a reaction than Goto/Shibata considering the lengths of both. I also think Tanahashi/Naito will have gotten a more emotional response too rather than a match that had no real story/point to it. Tanahashi/Naito did take its time also - just considerably less than Omega/Okada. They certainly worked the crowd into a crescendo. I do not think the crowd died for Omega/Okada in the slightest.

    Bold stuff: Have to disagree on just about everything. I love you but come on, man. I had a metric fuck ton written out in response to this but I deleted it all because I'm not up for getting into a massive debate with you over it. Just know that I think you're wrong on those. Both guys near enough killed themselves in this match and you call it heartless? I know you're not big on either guy so yeah. I just find it downright unbelievable to the point I think you're being contrarian because you don't like the praise both are getting. At least you're not the guy who gave 2 and a half stars to Okada/Omega and 2.75 stars to Tanahashi/Naito. Side note: He gave the RAMBO 3 stars. That's right. There is genuinely someone out there who thinks the RAMBO is better than Okada/Omega and Tanahashi/Naito. Just know that you will never.... ever come across a worse opinion in wrestling than that. Never.

    On Goto/Shibata being a better match, that's opinion and all so not going to debate it greatly. But that match had no emotional investment for me and despite their history, there was absolutely nothing enticing about this match other than knowing they were going to beat the fuck out of each other. The match itself - on a workrate basis was really good. No real story going into the match and an outcome that mostly felt inconsequential for each guy means I don't view it as high as you do. Didn't care if Shibata won or if Goto did. Goto's went from IWGP challenger to G1 finalist to being a sub in a NEVER Openweight Title match where the result seems to cement that he's never getting a sustained run at the top if he ever wins the belt. Not charismatic enough compared to Tanahashi, Okada, Naito, Omega and Shibata. Not liked enough by the Japanese audience (it seems) enough compared to them as well. All he has going for him is his moveset and some flashes of personality here and there... but he's largely forgettable when it comes to the others.

    Absolutely nobody in this thread said that the tag title match was boring because of what you listed. Don't act snarky just because I prefer to blow my load over Okada/Omega rather than that match. Infact, nobody point blank said the match was boring. I said it was boring for a period, that's all. I enjoyed the match greatly - just not more than Okada/Omega. Complaining about WWE and NJPW getting the benefit of the doubt is silly. More people watch these promotions compared to the others, they are likely to have opinions on their big matches be more prevalent. For all the people saying Okada/Omega is the GOAT/great, I can find you people saying the opposite. There's you, Ed and Jon in this thread now who don't consider it GOAT or as great as most are making out. Then there is me, Jiggy, Natty. That's a 50/50 split.






    I think every wrestling fan should see this match. It doesn't matter if they come out of it hating it or loving it. Just watch it.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 02-01-2017 at 10:50 AM.


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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    I think that its a credit to a match if it can build on past stories and past matches. Ten years from now, people probably wont go back and watch the year of Omega and Okada to get the full grasp of this match. Theyll just watch this match period to see why people call it a GOAT.... And they wont be sure why. I think a match should be able to stand even if people dont associate it with a story and not be weaker for it. A match should still be a self comprised story and the "well you need to know the rest of the story to see it as a goat type match" just already eliminates it for me. Keep in mind im not discrediting the value of knowing the build up to it and it helping a match be great. I just dont think it can reach GOAT status if it needs factors outside the match to put it there.

    On more minor matters. I agree that NOAH could use more notable characters but I still had an appreciation for veteran Shiozaki wanting to put to death punching above his weight Kotoge. It was more interesting to me than 30 minutes of nothing before Omega decides the fans have rested up and he really wants to win this match. Also.... Okada had like two expressions that whole match. His normal one and the one where he's cringing in pain.

    This goes for anything else like a book or a movie or a game in a series. The Witcher 3 is GOAT if you played the other games but its also still GOAT if you havent.

    As for discussion. Anytime something is called Best Match Ever it causes debate.

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Legend View Post
    Ten years from now, people probably wont go back and watch the year of Omega and Okada to get the full grasp of this match. Theyll just watch this match period to see why people call it a GOAT.... And they wont be sure why. I think a match should be able to stand even if people dont associate it with a story and not be weaker for it.
    This is pretty funny after listening to Austin gush about it on his podcast with essentially zero knowledge of the story/competitors.
    [save]


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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Natural View Post
    This is pretty funny after listening to Austin gush about it on his podcast with essentially zero knowledge of the story/competitors.
    True, power of having different opinions I guess

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    Re: 'Best Match Ever' Free for 7 Days [Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega] SPOILER FREE!

    They most certainly won't watch the entire year but it's not difficult to read an article or something along those lines and educate yourself. I think if someone read a quick history of 2016 for both men (and what it meant to them) then watched the pre match promo, you'd get the idea that this is a pretty big deal in kayfabe. I suppose something like Tanahashi/Naito would require alot more reading but it's worth it. A match itself should absolutely have a story (which Omega/Okada has) - but almost all matches have a self contained story: person A is trying to beat person B and vice versa. I would think it should reach GOAT status on those circumstances - shouldn't a GOAT Wrestling match be the whole package and fully representative of what a match is rather than something that only partially represents what a wrestling match truly is?

    Touched on it in the WK thread but outside of the in ring work, there's this problem where the characters of NOAH just haven't connected with the audience so much. I'm hoping this new NOAH might reinvigorate things with the push of new talent and whatnot. They really need someone at the top who can draw the fans in. And hopefully whoever's booking isn't entirely inept either so they don't ruin drawing potential. Shiozaki and Kotoge is a cool dynamic for sure though. It might definitely help Kotoge in the long run but not sure about Shiozaki. He seems like a bit of a Goto.

    I think the whole 30 minutes of nothing shtick is way overblown, the match is relatively slow but it isn't like nothing happens. Just has a remarkably noticeable change of pace that leaves you wondering why they didn't do it earlier, I think. Disagree on Okada expressions. His expression when Omega kicks out of the Rainmaker is six stars tbh.


    ~
    ~ THE KING OF KINGS ~~
    Spoiler:






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