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Thread: The Ask Jim Thread

  1. #2721

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchy Batshuayi View Post
    Apparently they thought Recon was Mad Dog Vachon as well
    Good eye. The head looks far more like Vachon than Recon. Pop off the head, throw it on the body of a Vader Jakks figure, and do a big of paint to reduce Vader's ring gear and you'd have a custom Mad Dog Vachon figure.

    Even though Jakks were a step up in the likeness factor to the early 90s Hasbro figures, it was still a ways to go to make them look really good. Considering their price, the current Mattel ones are great based on the pics of them online. Young Jim would be pretty pissed off if he knew there'd be a day in the future where a kid could get a figure for virtually any wrestler in the past just by going to the store.

  2. #2722
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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    So in doing some research for a 1987 WWF BTB project, I spotted the Frank Tunney Sr Memorial Tag Team Tournament that took place in Toronto on March 15, 1987. I don't think I had ever seen this event before. Any particular story behind it? Any hype when it happened?

  3. #2723

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papaheem Sterling View Post
    So in doing some research for a 1987 WWF BTB project, I spotted the Frank Tunney Sr Memorial Tag Team Tournament that took place in Toronto on March 15, 1987. I don't think I had ever seen this event before. Any particular story behind it? Any hype when it happened?
    Back in 1987, the WWE ran numerous one night tag tournaments at various house shows where the winners would then challenge the WWE Tag Team Champions, The Hart Foundation for the belts at the end of the night. The tournaments never really meant anything since the Harts never lost the belts to any of the winners. Since this house show tournament was taking place at the Maple Leaf Gardens, where the Tunneys controlled for years before joining up with the WWE, the WWE just gave this individual tournament a fancy name. Don't let the name mislead you though. It didn't mean anything beyond being a gimmick to fill out a house show without needing as many wrestlers as you'd normally need.

    In 1986, they ran a similar idea to add a gimmick to some house show matches by hosting a big tag team battle royal at the end of the night, but before that there would be a bunch of singles matches featuring tag team wrestler. I believe one or two of those house shows can be found on the WWE Network.

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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Back in 1987, the WWE ran numerous one night tag tournaments at various house shows where the winners would then challenge the WWE Tag Team Champions, The Hart Foundation for the belts at the end of the night. The tournaments never really meant anything since the Harts never lost the belts to any of the winners. Since this house show tournament was taking place at the Maple Leaf Gardens, where the Tunneys controlled for years before joining up with the WWE, the WWE just gave this individual tournament a fancy name. Don't let the name mislead you though. It didn't mean anything beyond being a gimmick to fill out a house show without needing as many wrestlers as you'd normally need.

    In 1986, they ran a similar idea to add a gimmick to some house show matches by hosting a big tag team battle royal at the end of the night, but before that there would be a bunch of singles matches featuring tag team wrestler. I believe one or two of those house shows can be found on the WWE Network.
    Well that is a thoroughly disappointing and thoroughly thorough answer. Thank you, sir. Even if I was somehow holding out weird hope that it was the WWF's secret answer to the Jim Crockett Memorial Tag Team Tournament that had just somehow slid under my view for a couple of decades.

    Now hold your breath and await the first of several dozen emails about WWF in 1987 and 1988 for this BTB project that won't happen.

  5. #2725

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papaheem Sterling View Post
    Well that is a thoroughly disappointing and thoroughly thorough answer. Thank you, sir. Even if I was somehow holding out weird hope that it was the WWF's secret answer to the Jim Crockett Memorial Tag Team Tournament that had just somehow slid under my view for a couple of decades.
    To give you an idea of just how little of a deal this was, I'd imagine the only sort of TV acknowledgment this tournament received was with those local promos that would air on the weekly shows where they'd specifically mention a show. So if you were in the Philly area, an episode of Superstars would feature promos at the end where the superstars would talk about the next spectrum show. But on the same show shown in Denver, would show promos for their local event. Hell, even though some of the tournament matches were shown on Primetime Wrestling, shown on different episodes, they didn't even bother airing the winners of the tournament, The Killer Bees, title shot against The Hart Foundation. Instead, back in 1987, the only way to watch that match, if you weren't there, was if you watched the full Maple Leaf Gardens show on whatever channel those shows aired on.

    A proper attempt at trying to copy the Crockett Cup would have been interesting though. Not counting substitutions for injuries, the closest we got to a makeshift team in these tournaments was the Heenan Family team of King Kong Bundy and Paul Orndorff. Throwing Hogan in with someone like Billy Jack Haynes, Koko B. Ware, or Ricky Steamboat, would have been a good means of setting up a new challenger. Alas, the WWE never cared too much about tag team wrestling.

    Now hold your breath and await the first of several dozen emails about WWF in 1987 and 1988 for this BTB project that won't happen.
    As long as it's not asking me about who would be an ideal owner or GM, I'm all for offering my thoughts on WWE 1987/1988. It's far more interesting for me than answering WCW 2001/2002 questions.

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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    To give you an idea of just how little of a deal this was, I'd imagine the only sort of TV acknowledgment this tournament received was with those local promos that would air on the weekly shows where they'd specifically mention a show. So if you were in the Philly area, an episode of Superstars would feature promos at the end where the superstars would talk about the next spectrum show. But on the same show shown in Denver, would show promos for their local event. Hell, even though some of the tournament matches were shown on Primetime Wrestling, shown on different episodes, they didn't even bother airing the winners of the tournament, The Killer Bees, title shot against The Hart Foundation. Instead, back in 1987, the only way to watch that match, if you weren't there, was if you watched the full Maple Leaf Gardens show on whatever channel those shows aired on.

    A proper attempt at trying to copy the Crockett Cup would have been interesting though. Not counting substitutions for injuries, the closest we got to a makeshift team in these tournaments was the Heenan Family team of King Kong Bundy and Paul Orndorff. Throwing Hogan in with someone like Billy Jack Haynes, Koko B. Ware, or Ricky Steamboat, would have been a good means of setting up a new challenger. Alas, the WWE never cared too much about tag team wrestling.

    As long as it's not asking me about who would be an ideal owner or GM, I'm all for offering my thoughts on WWE 1987/1988. It's far more interesting for me than answering WCW 2001/2002 questions.
    This tag tourney is actually symptomatic of part of the difficulty of booking the WWF through this period with an "realism".... the market segregation and all the little things they did around it makes it tough to present and even tougher to book. All those little idiosyncrasies are important to really capture the company. The average reader wouldn't recognize the lack of them, but a discerning observer - like you - certainly would.

    The other big thing I would struggle with would be keep things grounded. There is so much talent out there that its hard not to overreach and start signing everyone. I've toyed around with The Golden Age mod on TEW 2016, which starts in March 1987. And man, you can sign so many good workers to the WWF right away. Having the patience to do it gradually, and the restraint to leave some talent for other companies, is damned difficult.

    Also.... who would be your ideal GM in 1987?


  7. #2727
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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Which was worse WWF/E where ever wrestler had a part time job or WCW's Dungeon of Doom?

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  8. #2728

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papaheem Sterling View Post
    This tag tourney is actually symptomatic of part of the difficulty of booking the WWF through this period with an "realism".... the market segregation and all the little things they did around it makes it tough to present and even tougher to book. All those little idiosyncrasies are important to really capture the company. The average reader wouldn't recognize the lack of them, but a discerning observer - like you - certainly would.
    What sort of things are you thinking about here? Off of the top of my head, the only one that instantly jumps out to me that I've seen some do are the BTBs where squash matches are just gone. Every weekly show is just loaded with superstar vs superstar matches and it doesn't feel like that time period at all. I suppose there are a few ways to try and work around it if you're willing to think outside of the box. For example, in the past, I've wondered about a BTB where it's all about the house shows. Just focusing on the main four-six arenas and keep running them in order, telling the stories of the programs on those in order to have big matches all of the time and still be realistic.

    The other big thing I would struggle with would be keep things grounded. There is so much talent out there that its hard not to overreach and start signing everyone. I've toyed around with The Golden Age mod on TEW 2016, which starts in March 1987. And man, you can sign so many good workers to the WWF right away. Having the patience to do it gradually, and the restraint to leave some talent for other companies, is damned difficult.
    I mean, that's kinda what McMahon did. It seemed like every year to year and a half, there was a big arrival of several notable stars from around the country. Even the big omission of the 80s, Ric Flair, ended up joining the company in 1991 along with Ricky Steamboat, Mike Rotunda, Percy Pringle, The Destruction Crew, and others.

    Also.... who would be your ideal GM in 1987?

    I know this is a joke question, but I actually had a decent idea for an angle. Ted DiBiase debuts in mid 1987 as the new GM of the WWE, in a role that absolutely wasn't needed, but WWE President, Jack Tunney still announced DiBiase as the GM. Eventually it can come out that DiBiase bought his way into being the GM. For the second half of 1987, DiBiase is a growing heel authority figure who keeps putting Hulk Hogan in more and more challenging matches. DiBiase keeps claiming that he's just about giving opportunities to wrestlers and as WWE Champion, Hogan should have had this sort of hectic schedule since first winning the title. Tunney didn't do it, but GM DiBiase will. So at least when you listen to DiBiase, you can sorta see the logic in where he's coming from, but you just know that this isn't fair. It eventually builds up to DiBiase announcing the new #1 contender - himself. Since he's the GM, DiBiase hires Earl Hebner as the referee in order to screw Hogan over and win the title on Main Event #1. After the title switch, the truth comes out about DiBiase buying his way into the GM role, Tunney, realizing that he's at the start of a potential huge scandal, goes crazy in trying to regain face and avoid being fired by the WWE board of directors, so he removes DiBiase as GM, fires Hebner as a referee forever, and offers Hogan a rematch at WM 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woke Willis View Post
    Which was worse WWF/E where ever wrestler had a part time job or WCW's Dungeon of Doom?
    Oh, that's easy. The Dungeon of Doom.

    The occupational wrestlers in the early to mid 90s were dumb, but how many of them actually mattered? For every IRS, there was a Sparky Plugg, TL Hopper, Duke Drose, The Goon, ect. How much can occupational wrestlers really hurt a company when they're rarely ever more than just a JTTS and often are only in the company for a short amount of time?

    On the other hand, there was the Dungeon of Doom. For a time, the top heel act in WCW. In a time when wrestling needed to evolve and fit in the 90s more, like what ECW was doing, Bischoff's idea was to go even further back and use an idea that McMahon would have done in the mid 80s. It'd be one thing if the Dungeon of Doom was a silly idea, but with meaningful top monsters like The Giant, Vader, and Earthquake (Like how he was booked in 1990), but the vast majority of the group were just geeks. I absolutely hate the nWo and find them insufferable to watch, but they at least fit that time period and felt fresh. The Dungeon of Doom was a main attraction featuring a very dated concept.

  9. #2729
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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread



    DAMMIT, JIM, THAT WAS A JOKE QUESTION! You were not to supposed to use it throw out a pretty cool idea that would be a really slick way to introduce a key character. Just chill, man. Chill....

    The idiosyncrasies I mean are some of what you mentioned - the importance of house shows, squash matches... The overall schedule. Some of it stands out because this is based around a mod in Total Extreme Wrestling 2016, and the game only replicates this period so well. There are.... issues. My perception of 1987 is generally that the WWF has moved into a more "modern" era in terms of its schedule, TV usage, events, etc. But in reality, its a transition period between the regional approach and the modern TV approach. They didn't really have a proper modern TV show - it was what we would consider B shows, but with bigger storylines. They only had 2 PPV events in '87 and then some SNMEs. In TEW, the temptation is to switch one of the B shows to be an A show, because that helps build company popularity while a B show doesn't. The importance of house shows, difference between "big ones" and normal ones, and the two different touring groups.... Its just some unique dynamics that you have to capture. Some might not be so problematic but some would. And the temptation is to "modernize" too quickly, making things unrealistic.

    Adding talent is always something I have issue with, in regard to restraint. A sheer fucking lack of it. Adding a lot of the talent that the WWF actually did might be fine, but doing so over the course of 3 months instead of 4 years is less fine. It creates a bloated roster, gives everyone less of a chance to stand out, etc. In TEW, its somewhat more required - if you don't sign a worker like Curt Hennig while he is available, another company might snap him up on a written deal and he won't be available again for 3 to 5 years.

    Even characterizations.... A few times, I've come up with different character ideas I like and then had to think hard about whether it would have been too early for that. That is honestly true of almost any historical era.

    But its a fascinating time period. Even a relatively small change could be huge. Like what if the WWF didn't punish Ricky Steamboat for wanting to spend a bit of time with his family, wrote him off for 3 months, and then gave him a run as the #2 babyface like what was planned? Does he eventually grow to be a genuine world title contender, or would his lack of mic skills keep him from that? So many little divergence points to consider.

  10. #2730

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papaheem Sterling View Post


    DAMMIT, JIM, THAT WAS A JOKE QUESTION! You were not to supposed to use it throw out a pretty cool idea that would be a really slick way to introduce a key character. Just chill, man. Chill....
    There was the debate over whether or not I'd want to have Tunney intentionally getting bought out. Maybe have DiBiase blackmail him or run some big angle where a heel injures Tunney so a temporary President comes into power and THAT person gets bought by DiBiase. Then you can have Tunney return from injury to be president again after the DiBiase title win to fire the acting President (Who could become a manager?) and start to right the wrongs committed by DiBiase. That idea takes more effort, but I like it more since Tunney was always on the up and up and it would allow for a new heel manager to be created in addition to DiBiase as the top heel.

    The idiosyncrasies I mean are some of what you mentioned - the importance of house shows, squash matches... The overall schedule. Some of it stands out because this is based around a mod in Total Extreme Wrestling 2016, and the game only replicates this period so well. There are.... issues. My perception of 1987 is generally that the WWF has moved into a more "modern" era in terms of its schedule, TV usage, events, etc. But in reality, its a transition period between the regional approach and the modern TV approach. They didn't really have a proper modern TV show - it was what we would consider B shows, but with bigger storylines. They only had 2 PPV events in '87 and then some SNMEs. In TEW, the temptation is to switch one of the B shows to be an A show, because that helps build company popularity while a B show doesn't. The importance of house shows, difference between "big ones" and normal ones, and the two different touring groups.... Its just some unique dynamics that you have to capture. Some might not be so problematic but some would. And the temptation is to "modernize" too quickly, making things unrealistic.
    It was certainly a weird time period. On the surface, you were in the modern era with PPVs, but it was more of a transitional period. In 1987, PPVs weren't what really mattered. The business was still very much so built around the house show business. This became much clearer in 1988 when a show like Summerslam 1988 purposely didn't book many of the matches that would have made sense (Savage/DiBiase, Hogan/Andre, Roberts/Rude, ect) because they still needed to draw people to the house shows. The weekly show with the most star vs star matches, Primetime Wrestling, was more of a highlight program with a bunch of completely random matches filmed in a studio rather than be arena based like the other weeklies. Even though PPV became far more of the focus once the 90s began, you could make the argument that Raw wasn't truly the A show until 1995.

    At the same time, creating a BTB where you modernize 80s WWE and present them as they would be handled in the mid 90s is a way to present an old project with a twist.

    Adding talent is always something I have issue with, in regard to restraint. A sheer fucking lack of it. Adding a lot of the talent that the WWF actually did might be fine, but doing so over the course of 3 months instead of 4 years is less fine. It creates a bloated roster, gives everyone less of a chance to stand out, etc. In TEW, its somewhat more required - if you don't sign a worker like Curt Hennig while he is available, another company might snap him up on a written deal and he won't be available again for 3 to 5 years.
    It sounds like things are pretty similar to how they were in reality. You have absolutely anyone, but you have to decide who you want immediately and if you don't sign them, you won't be able to for awhile.

    Even characterizations.... A few times, I've come up with different character ideas I like and then had to think hard about whether it would have been too early for that. That is honestly true of almost any historical era.
    Tbh, that just seems like a way to add more creativity to a project with using a more modern character, but giving it to a star in the 80s.

    But its a fascinating time period. Even a relatively small change could be huge. Like what if the WWF didn't punish Ricky Steamboat for wanting to spend a bit of time with his family, wrote him off for 3 months, and then gave him a run as the #2 babyface like what was planned? Does he eventually grow to be a genuine world title contender, or would his lack of mic skills keep him from that? So many little divergence points to consider.
    Oh, Steamboat certainly wasn't going to be pushed into the main event scene, even if everything had remained cool with them. We saw how hard it was for any new face to get into the main event scene as long as Hogan was still there. The idea that Steamboat, one of the weakest talkers that had ever been World Champion, could get into the WWE main event scene is not believable at all.

  11. #2731
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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    So goal #1 - make Ricky Stemaboat into a bigger star than Hogan. Got it.

    No chance that they would have put Steamboat in the spot below Hogan, where he would work programs against Harley Race, Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect etc? Had him headlining the second house show route? They had Tito there just a couple of yeas before and while Tito could talk more than Steamboat, I always considered Steamboat to be a better in-ring worker.

    When it comes to these kind of projects, I am always leery of making major changes too quickly. Whether its roster change, a product adjustment, or even a switch in how the business is formatted (where the focus is). It quickly feels "unrealistic" to me. Even if you use a narrative event of some time to justify it - like the good old "Vince had a heart attack, so Stephanie and Trips fully took creative control of the WWE".... it usually feels contrived to me. I think that is part of the appeal of a "WCW Lives" or even an "ECW Lives" project. The divergence point is real and you can go in almost any direction without it feeling too unlikely. Doing modernizations has similar concerns for me - the right ones would be a really cool and unique way to make a project stand out. But the wrong ones would not just an issue for readers, but would be likely to kill my interest in the project too.

    With any possible BTB project, I find it easy to find some ideas I like and some things I'd like do, but planning falls apart when I end up looking at the whole company. That happens every time I look at a more modern time period of the WWE - some cool things I'd like to do, but all this other crap I don't wanna deal with and then I can't be bothered. I could go with a more limited narrative approach but I kinda like presenting the whole company. Think what I need to do, if there is any chance of this going forward, is to sit down and make a few plans for a few different narrative arcs. Who I want to build up, how, etc. Go from there.

    Start to long-plan a few things. The last run for Andre. Rebuilding the tag division (and why Vince suddenly decides to). The slow recognition of the need to move beyond Hogan, due to overreliance as much as age. Things like that.

  12. #2732
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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papaheem Sterling
    So goal #1 - make Ricky Stemaboat into a bigger star than Hogan. Got it.

    No chance that they would have put Steamboat in the spot below Hogan, where he would work programs against Harley Race, Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect etc? Had him headlining the second house show route? They had Tito there just a couple of yeas before and while Tito could talk more than Steamboat, I always considered Steamboat to be a better in-ring worker.

    When it comes to these kind of projects, I am always leery of making major changes too quickly. Whether its roster change, a product adjustment, or even a switch in how the business is formatted (where the focus is). It quickly feels "unrealistic" to me. Even if you use a narrative event of some time to justify it - like the good old "Vince had a heart attack, so Stephanie and Trips fully took creative control of the WWE".... it usually feels contrived to me. I think that is part of the appeal of a "WCW Lives" or even an "ECW Lives" project. The divergence point is real and you can go in almost any direction without it feeling too unlikely. Doing modernizations has similar concerns for me - the right ones would be a really cool and unique way to make a project stand out. But the wrong ones would not just an issue for readers, but would be likely to kill my interest in the project too.

    With any possible BTB project, I find it easy to find some ideas I like and some things I'd like do, but planning falls apart when I end up looking at the whole company. That happens every time I look at a more modern time period of the WWE - some cool things I'd like to do, but all this other crap I don't wanna deal with and then I can't be bothered. I could go with a more limited narrative approach but I kinda like presenting the whole company. Think what I need to do, if there is any chance of this going forward, is to sit down and make a few plans for a few different narrative arcs. Who I want to build up, how, etc. Go from there.

    Start to long-plan a few things. The last run for Andre. Rebuilding the tag division (and why Vince suddenly decides to). The slow recognition of the need to move beyond Hogan, due to overreliance as much as age. Things like that.
    These two piqued my interest.


  13. #2733

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papaheem Sterling View Post
    So goal #1 - make Ricky Stemaboat into a bigger star than Hogan. Got it.

    No chance that they would have put Steamboat in the spot below Hogan, where he would work programs against Harley Race, Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect etc? Had him headlining the second house show route? They had Tito there just a couple of yeas before and while Tito could talk more than Steamboat, I always considered Steamboat to be a better in-ring worker.
    I mean, that's where Steamboat was when he was either IC Champion or challenging for the title. Back in those days, the IC Title match nearly always headlined the B touring group. Obviously, because Steamboat wasn't IC Champion for long, he didn't get much of a chance, but he did main event some house shows.

    As far as the comparison to Santana, a guy who did headline plenty of house shows from 1984-1986, I wouldn't say it's something I'd suggest focusing on too much. Things were changing quickly. Whereas in the mid 80s, Santana was good enough, despite his limited mic skills, to be pushed really hard, by the late 80s, that was no longer true. Had Santana returned to the WWE a few years later than he did in reality, he wouldn't have been pushed like he was starting in late 1983.

    Start to long-plan a few things. The last run for Andre. Rebuilding the tag division (and why Vince suddenly decides to). The slow recognition of the need to move beyond Hogan, due to overreliance as much as age. Things like that.
    I'd argue that by 1987, the WWE had a pretty decent tag division. Was it as strong as JCP'd tag division? No, but for WWE standards, it was really strong.

    As far as the recognition of the need to move beyond Hogan, that happened in reality. Even before the end of the 80s, McMahon realized that he needed to prepare for post-Hogan, but what are you supposed to do when it comes to replacing the biggest star you've ever had? Had someone been a success, Hogan's 90s title reigns wouldn't have needed to happen. Now, you could argue that the handling of the new pushed main eventers wasn't the best, which call Savage and/or Warrior a failure all you want, but a lot of it was the booking.

  14. #2734
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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    I guess the tag division would be more of "building up" than re-building. Poor wording on my part. I mean they had the Hart Foundation, the Bulldogs, Demolition, and the greatest tag team in history, The Fabulous Rougeau's.

    Although the Bulldogs will have to break up so Dynamite Kid can head the "ahead of its time" Cruiserweight division!!!!

    I've always viewed the Savage and Warrior issues as being booking based. Kinda like Punk in 2012. You can't just give someone the title, clearly present them as secondary to another star, and then wonder why they "can't carry the company". Trying to turn Ultimate Warrior into an engaging, interesting champion who can have good matches on a consistent basis would be... a challenge.

    Speaking of Hogan, how much of the failure of Warrior and Savage to catch fire as champion was down to politicking?

    Also.... did Honky Tonk headline a lot of house shows as IC champion? or had they stopped doing that by that point? I gotta do more digging on Cagematch but figured you would probably just know lol

  15. #2735

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papa View Post
    Although the Bulldogs will have to break up so Dynamite Kid can head the "ahead of its time" Cruiserweight division!!!!
    Hardly ahead of its time when WWE already had a few Cruiserweight-level titles by that point. Hell, there was a period of time when you saw Dynamite Kid, Tiger Mask, The Cobra, ect all stealing the show before McMahon eventually moved away from that action after buying the company in 1983.

    I've always viewed the Savage and Warrior issues as being booking based. Kinda like Punk in 2012. You can't just give someone the title, clearly present them as secondary to another star, and then wonder why they "can't carry the company". Trying to turn Ultimate Warrior into an engaging, interesting champion who can have good matches on a consistent basis would be... a challenge.
    Honestly, Warrior's one of the most underrated wrestlers of all time. For a guy with such a shit reputation, he magically had multiple MOTYCs in his time with the WWE.

    Speaking of Hogan, how much of the failure of Warrior and Savage to catch fire as champion was down to politicking?
    See, I don't know if it's so much politicking since Hogan was busy filming movies during Savage and Warrior's title reigns. I'd say it's mostly just down to McMahon purposely holding off giving Savage and Warrior the right opponents because they were being saved for Hogan's return. Post-WM 6, Earthquake absolutely should have been used against Warrior instead of Hogan.

    Also.... did Honky Tonk headline a lot of house shows as IC champion? or had they stopped doing that by that point? I gotta do more digging on Cagematch but figured you would probably just know lol
    Oh, prior to WM 4, Honky Tonk Man and Randy Savage did great business headlining the B-tour. Honky also headlined with Bruno Sammartino, Ricky Steamboat, and immediately after losing the title, he challenged Ultimate Warrior some.

    The switch to when the IC Title wouldn't headline the B tour anymore came around 1990-1991. Tornado nor Bret Hart was going to headline any shows back then. Instead, they were helped out by whichever major star that wasn't the World Champion at the time. Whether that meant Flair, Piper, Hogan, Savage, ect. By the end of the televised house show era, early 1992, you were now seeing the IC Champion wrestle on the same card with the World Champion a lot. Then if there was a B touring group, which at times there wasn't, it was going to be headlined with someone like The Undertaker.

  16. #2736

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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    I'm ready for this Papa project to come out already.

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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    So Light Heavyweight division is a go.

    I've always hated the name "light heavyweight" for some reason.

    Gonna be honest, I've always viewed Warrior as more of a "guy who can have good matches with the right opponents" guy than a good worker in his own right. I think this goes back to how I even perceived him back then, but maybe its been tainted since. I do need to go back and watch some of his matches. Research time!

    Looking over some of the signing dates of the late 80s and early 90s talent in the WWF. My lord did they add a between WM3 and the end of 1988.

    Quote Originally Posted by The EC View Post
    I'm ready for this Papa project to come out already.
    I appreciate the pre-project support. But.... I wouldn't be holding my breath just yet. Very early planning stages. I'm also toying around with ECW in another TEW mod, so my attention could always turn to finally doing an ECW project of some form.

  18. #2738

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papa View Post
    Looking over some of the signing dates of the late 80s and early 90s talent in the WWF. My lord did they add a between WM3 and the end of 1988.
    For sure.

    Besides the first year or so of Vince Jr. taking over and drastically altering the roster by getting rid of a lot of guys and bringing in the likes of Hogan, Piper, Valentine, Orndorff, Santana, Ventura, ect that period of mostly mid 1987 to late 1988 saw the biggest alteration of the roster of the 80s. To me, it's all about McMahon being firmly in control of the wrestling war. Everyone else, including now JCP, but that's more due to poor money management than actually not drawing, was starting to suffer. Since the WWE was still looking to expand and was still struggling to find success in some portions of the country, they were looking to grab a lot of guys. Since these other companies weren't doing great, it's not as if McMahon's offers were hard to pass up. This wasn't just WWE based, but right before Turner bought JCP, there was a mass exodus of talent between Great American Bash '88 and Starrcade '88. Even though some like The Brainbusters, The Bushwhackers, and Ronnie Garvin would either immediately or quickly end up in the WWE, others would be happy with just leaving JCP and going to the AWA or elsewhere. Guys like The Rock 'n' Roll Express, Jimmy Garvin, Nikita Koloff (Although his case is a bit different), ect wouldn't even be touched by the WWE, but JCP would still lose them.

    This was the nice thing about the roster at the time, since people were constantly always coming in, it wasn't a loss when a significant star left the WWE. No one even really noticed when two of the top heels of the initial years of the Wrestlemania era, Paul Orndorff and King Kong Bundy, left because you had the likes of Ted DiBiase, Rick Rude, The One Man Gang, and Bad News Brown all coming in when they were leaving. Same thing is true about the tag team division. After Survivor Series 1988, The British Bulldogs, easily the top tag act in 1986 and top babyface tag act in 1987, up and left, but did it hurt the division at all? Of course not. The WWE had just recently added The Brainbusters, The Rockers, The Bushwhackers, and The Powers of Pain to the roster!

    It's also the fact that the WWE added so many new significant tag teams in 1988, that makes me wonder if that's what caused you to think that 1987's tag scene was kinda rough? The tag division was fine in 1986-1987, you just had The Bulldogs, The Killer Bees, Sheik/Volkoff, The Dream Team, ect there to hold things together before the changes that came in 1988.

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    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Nikita Koloff is a guy I always had a soft spot for. A Soviet superman heel could have done really well in the WWF, I think. But with the stuff with his wife, I don't know if I would be comfortable bringing him in.

    With regard to the tag division... I think it was just down to comparative perception. Just thinking about all the tag teams that the WWF had in the late 80s, then looking at who was actually on the roster for March '87.... its just like "oh, I guess its just these guys". You are right - its hardly a weakness. "These guys" still make for a pretty solid division. Just not as impressive as what you know it would be a bit down the road.

  20. #2740

    Re: The Ask Jim Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papa View Post
    Nikita Koloff is a guy I always had a soft spot for. A Soviet superman heel could have done really well in the WWF, I think. But with the stuff with his wife, I don't know if I would be comfortable bringing him in.
    Hell, it's a BTB. You can do whatever the hell you want. You can even come up with your own story for why Koloff came into the WWE in the fall of 1987. Maybe McMahon is throwing loads of money at him, willing to pay for all of Koloff's care and then partnering up with Koloff to create a WWE based charity to research Hodgkin's Disease. Hell, if he comes in the fall of 1987, it's before his fiance was even diagnosed with Hodgkin's Disease.

    If for no other reason, bring Nikita in just so he can become Volkoff's new partner and that awful Boris Zhukov can remain in the AWA.

    With regard to the tag division... I think it was just down to comparative perception. Just thinking about all the tag teams that the WWF had in the late 80s, then looking at who was actually on the roster for March '87.... its just like "oh, I guess its just these guys". You are right - its hardly a weakness. "These guys" still make for a pretty solid division. Just not as impressive as what you know it would be a bit down the road.
    It really is the time period when there's a clear shift to focusing on guys with over the top characters. Even though starting with Vince Jr. buying out his day, there were and more gimmicks each year, post-WM 3, every act became a gimmick.

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