The Monday Night Wars wasn't led by the WWE though. I give WCW full credit for being responsible for creating that wrestling boom that allowed the WWE to eventually get eyes back on their product due to all of the crazy amount of casual fans WCW had created. We've seen from experience that even if a smaller company has a period where they're putting on fantastic shows, it doesn't mean the company will actually be successful or create a boom period. That's all on the #1 company.You mentioned that the #1 company has to lead the charge, and if anything, WWF has led from behind taking ideas and talent from ECW and WCW. I brought up those boom periods in mind that they would force WWE to up their game. And even though I enjoy indy wrestling, I'm coming around that you need that larger than life figure to sell your company to a wide audience, especially if it is a nationwide company. When people see that main event, they want to actually believe that they are hurting each other.
I'd say Lucha Libre would be a better example of an entirely different style that is naturally difficult for some fans of American wrestling to be able to get absorbed in. I know I haven't fully appreciated any Lucha Libre I've seen. Even if you check out my WCW Monday Night Era reviews, you'll see me often criticizing the six man and eight man Lucha tags due to the lack of story/selling and non stop mindless action.
Where's Zero when you need him? I imagine he has a couple of Japanese wrestling fans locked in his basement.An example being Hirooki Goto. He seems to be well liked and popular amongst Western fans but he seems to be considered utterly boring by the Japanese. Western fans might get pissed he isn't pushed to the moon or given any sort of serious run and be totally annoyed with the product... but... would they be right to blame NJPW for that since NJPW would be making a booking decision that wouldn't sit well with the Japanese audience? It's all personal preference obviously. I guess, to me, it just seems that if you're gonna watch a product that's foreign then you might need to understand why some things are different or work out that way. I'm not saying people should learn about the culture or how the business works in different cultures or anything but it seems that a lot of gripes people may have can be perfectly explained away using some knowledge. Or do you think I'm just completely wrong with that opinion? Perhaps it's because someone Western might look at Goto and think he kills it in the ring yet doesn't get the push he deserves whilst Japanese people might not like his personality/promo skills or whatever (it doesn't seem like they took to him as the Nak's successor to the Intercontinental title). Perhaps it depends what you focus on and what you think should be rewarded but it seems that the language/cultural barrier might prevent people from getting into specific storylines or characters or perhaps missing the point a little. I imagine NJPW isn't a great example to use as storylines are fairly simple but promos might get lost on people - if you can't understand the language then how do you know who's good at promoing and who isn't? Another example would be Kenny Omega - he seems quite polarising amongst the Western fanbase but he's over as fuck in Japan and I feel that is because he portrays a character that is aimed to please the Japanese audience (the overly cheesy animated gaijin villain) that might not translate well enough. His promos might be considered cheesy and lame by some Western fans but he promos like that to get over with the Japanese audience.
I'm not aware if Japanese fans are not high on Goto. From my understanding of hearing fans opinions over New Japan since 2011-2012, it's less that Westerns are demanding that Goto becomes the Ace of the company as much as it's just a desire to see him at least be given an IWGP Title reign. It isn't as if Goto is someone who is buried in New Japan either. For years he's been in that Kane position of being someone who is more of a midcarder, but you can give him an IWGP Title shot at any B-Show and it'd be believable. Some of Goto's lack of World Title success can be attributed to simply the bad luck of being around during Tanahashi's prime and now Okada's prime. Let's say TNA signed Tanahashi following his Final Destination 2006 match against AJ Styles and he'd remain with TNA for a decade. I think it's a safe bet that Goto would have been an IWGP Champion. The same exact thing applies to Westerners with WWE with Roddy Piper, Ted DiBiase, or Rick Rude. It's also not as if Goto was the only one kept from the title due to the total death hold that Tanahashi and Okada have had over the IWGP Title. Besides just establishing the IWGP IC Title, I'd imagine one of the reasons why Nakamura dominated the IC Title is because he couldn't get the IWGP title in the 2010's.
Sometimes it's just a matter of figuring out how to get someone over. Naito is an example of that. People weren't into his push into a Tokyo Dome title shot, but once he heeled it up and started Los Ingobernables, fans were back on his side.
It also depends on how the product is presented too, of course, as a lot of people tend to have differing opinions on what they enjoy. What do you enjoy? I really enjoy my wrestling being presented as a pseudo sport - it makes everything simpler and storylines not extremely convoluted. I guess I use it as an excuse to look past some booking issues at times too. People would get pissed if a belt is hotshotted in WWE cause they're all clued in to how booking works and how the company functions etc. But couldn't you actually turn around and say that hotshotting isn't detrimental on the basis that if the product is being presented as a pseudo sport in the same vein as, say, MMA? Some people win a belt in MMA then lose it in their next fight. It happens. Nature of the beast when in a sporting contest. Obviously for wrestling you have to buy into the kayfabe of it all - but a pseudo sport kayfabe is really not difficult to get into. Especially if it's not so obviously broken constantly that you can't really immerse yourself in the universe.
Fuck, the questions hadn't begun yet? Damn.So my questions are basically
See above.- Do you think that if you watched a promotion, say NJPW, as your first wrestling experience then your opinion on things would differ greatly compared to having prior experience with other companies such as WWE? And do you think that having prior viewing experience of a different company could, infact, negatively impact your understanding and enjoyment of a different product because you apply WWE logic etc to it?
I mean, wouldn't you look up some info if you wanted to start watching CHIKARA for the first time?- Do you think that if you watch a foreign promotion then it may be better to get slightly clued up or seek information on certain things to fully understand it -- or is wrestling just wrestling and you don't need to know specific things if all you're interested in is the matches and not promos etc?
I suppose I enjoy more serious wrestling, but then again, I watch a lot of 80's WWE.- Do you enjoy your wrestling presented as a pseudo sport that's competitive and fits the mould of say Tennis or MMA like NJPW or would you prefer something more akin to WWE?
I'd argue that if you watch WWE with a sports mindset, you're going to have more issues since a guy like Jinder Mahal, who hasn't won a match since 2009, was suddenly in a #1 contender's match for a PPV World Title shot.- Does a pseudo sport presentation/approach kind of help explain away some criticisms you'd have of booking or storylines or matches if it were taking place in WWE instead?
Oh god, did I answer this one too? I really should read replies first before answering questions.and further question:
Complaining about match lengths is completely fair. Length plays a big role in whether or not a match is fun. Your stance is essentially is designed to eliminate all workrate criticisms in general, which is just sorta impossible to do in this day and age. It's not as if the WWE lives and dies by trying to keep kayfabe, why should the fans?- What do you think about match criticisms such as length and selling? I find that complaining about match length is weird because, in kayfabe, wrestlers have no idea how long they are going to go. People say you can shave 5-10 minutes off but they can only say that in hindsight and with the knowledge that it is worked and I don't believe you should watch wrestling with the "it's worked" mindset. I can understand matches getting boring and stuff. I guess it's a case of kayfabe vs nonkayfabe.
I care about selling. Even when it's not a huge deal that the selling stops, it's still eliminating an aspect of the match that would have made it better. If you're going to have a moment where a limb gets hurt, what's even the point of it if you then ignore it?As for selling - do you think selling is a massive deal? I think for certain matches/stories it is but I also think that it's way too overblown. I don't complain about selling all that much. The only time I've really been pissed about it was the Hell in a Cell with Sasha vs Charlotte and that's due to a stretcher spot being involved at the very start of the match. Just found it ridiculous. But if someone doesn't require a stretcher to be carried out of a match at any point then surely they are able to fight through the pain and land specific moves - even if their body part is damaged. I guess really what I'm asking is what should a match really be critiqued on? The story being told? The slickness of the moves pulled off? Do you think it should be judged totally in kayfabe or a mixture of both kayfabe and nonkayfabe?
As far as what matters in wrestling, everything does. Look at the greatest matches of all time, it's not just one great aspect about it. It's multiple things all connecting to create a wonderful picture.
If you're just looking at things in a pure kayfabe perspective, what all can you judge a match on? Whether or not your guy wins?
I wonder if I answered this question yet. *Insert thinking smilie*Lastly,
Virtually everyone. Kanyon was such an average wrestler who stood out because he had a hard on for creating convoluted moves, some of which were so complicated that they looked like shit when he hit them. The strongest aspect of Kanyon had nothing to do with what he did in the ring, but rather his ability for comedy.who better than Kanyon?