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Thread: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

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    Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    The other day I was discussing with my friends the recent plight of our national side. I believe half the issue is our younger players being thrust into things far too soon. After our dismal showing in the Euros this summer I truly believe that we should of taken our strongest squad. What on earth is the point in leaving people at home who are in the first England squad? When Spain won the World Cup Under 21 tournament 3(?) years ago they had Juan Mata in the team! Did Mata have to be there? Of course not, he was much better than that, however it's thrust him into a better player and now he's challenging for the Spanish side. This Euros Spain dominated again, with Isco pulling the Spanish strings. Again, did he have to be there? Definitely not, however did it do him any damage? Nope.

    Imagine how different things could of been if we had taken the following (I know 1/2 were a bit unfit but the premise still stands): Phil Jones, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Jack Wilshere, Jack Rodwell, Danny Welbeck. Are you telling me that they would of been worse for the experience before the world cup this year? It's like Townsend being in the first team at the minute, and Barkley. Surely we'd be best off letting these go to a major tournament at Under 21 level first (I know Townsend was suspended but...). I think we're so desperate to get anyone in the first team at the minute we should of let the current crop qualify and then taken our best moderately young side to the World Cup ala Germany with nothing to lose.

    Anyway, do you think England thrust players into the team too quickly, or do you think we should nurture them a bit more? And also, if we cap people quickly why the hell isn't Luke Shaw in the first team!?

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    In terms of not letting people under 21 in the proper national team, I think that's bollocks. If that was always the case, we'd have never had the Owen goal against Argentina in '98 or Rooney stealing the show at Euro 04. As long as their playing regularly for their club side and their form is impressive enough for Roy to pick them, then I think the 'if your good enough, your old enough' saying applies. Spain have the luxury of letting people like Isco develop in the U21's because their midfield is stacked and they don't need to rush him through, how stupid would it of looked for England to not call up Jack Wilshire these past few years at a time when we really needed him and give caps to idk Huddlestone and cattlemole instead. I think we do rush some talent through, Barkley getting a call up after 1 good game for Everton was OTT but as he's continued that on into September, he probably deserves to stick around.

    as for Luke Shaw, Ashley cole and Leighton Baines are pretty set as the 2 squad left backs few a couple more years, we don't need to rush him as much as say Midfielders

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    As they say...if there is grass in the soccer field, play ball!

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    Not even so much, old enough/good enough as much as really, why not let them go to a major tournament for the Under 21's when they aren't needed for the senior side? Experience is vital!

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    It's easy to say that about the Spanish side though, yeah Thiago and Isco ran the show for the Under 21s, but in the Senior side they will be trying to displace Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Silva etc etc.

    The problem with the England youth system is that the first team isn't strong enough, so when a Wilshere or Barkley comes through they are only competing with a few players to get the spot.

    Perhaps we do get a bit excited about players like Wilshere, but having seen England struggle and stutter through tournaments desperately trying to convince us Emile Heskey is an international forward and Gerrard is a left winger, is it really a surprise we hype players like that up?



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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    The problems with the England side are so labyrinthine that its almost impossible to condense in to one post.

    But one thing that really grates on me, is giving these token caps to players like Rickie Lambert, Kevin Davies etc. What is the point? I don't see the point in persevering with Gerrard, Lampard and Cole let alone giving players that are already 30+ their debuts. England don't have a chance in hell of doing anything of note at next year's World Cup, and by the time Euro 2016 comes around the aforementioned players will all be entering the ends of their careers, so why bother playing them now.

    If it were up to me I would start building a squad that could be competitive in 5-10 years time, and giving them a chance to play together would give us a greater chance in the future. I get that Spain field strong youth sides, but we aren't as blessed with talent as them. Would it hurt to give Shaw, Barkley etc a chance to shine. It might be an idyllic view of mine, but if they were to do this i picture a young England side getting beaten at Wembley by a couple of goals, but being applauded off. And as time went on growing into a seriously good, well coached, and progressive side. England fans would be accepting of a shift to youth if it was accompanied by a shift in playing style.

    Or alternatively, we can scrape through the Group Stage of the World Cup next summer. Come up against a side that understands how to keep hold of the ball, and our 4 midfielders can gallantly chase the shadows of the 5 opposing midfielders. Only to succumb to defeat because our aging side STILL didn't know how to retain the ball like a real International side.



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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    I'm not even English but here is my take on it.

    It for me is not unhealthy to thrust talents like Wilshere, Rooney and Owen, into the first team, when like Ed said, they are good enough.

    But there is a certain pressure always placed upon these players to be a shining knight and save the English national team.

    And the main problem is experience, for example Mata, Isco et al are being given important tournament experience when they are still young enough, yet the English football authorities think it is better for the likes of Phil Jones and Chamberlain to play in PR friendlies instead of gaining valuable tournament pressure experience with the under 21s. It would also add a winning mentality into the players when they get far instead of denting their mentality when they crash out early because the cream of the crop of their age are unavailable to the national team.

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    I'd say the main problem with the England team's players is technique, mentality and playing style, don't know about anyone else.



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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    There's so much wrong it's untrue.

    I agree about token caps. Why pick players in their 30s for the first time when you could look to the future? Realistically England aren't going to win anything in the near future, so look to the future, hand out caps to real promising talents like Barkley, Morrison, Shaw etc. Don't continue to maintain the status quo and pick the 100 cap brigade constantly.

    Also how about hiring a manager who has some fresh ideas and knows how football has to be played in 2013, rather than hiring a relic of a bygone age like Hodgson? Just a thought. Even Harry would be better than him.

    Wilshere's comments the other day were very telling. That kind of mentality where tackling is glorified to such an extent basically sums up in a nutshell why England won't win anything for a long time. It's hard to change an entire country's mentality to the game when everyone seems such backwards morons.


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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    I think really that if you're good enough, then you're old enough (much like the saying.) I think the England team really needs any good players that they can get, as none of the regulars are getting any younger and they're bound to lose it in the near future if they haven't already. If a player's playing well for his team and could potentially be better than whoever's in their position, then why shouldn't they play.

    We don't have much to lose atm. We're not one of the best teams in the world, so why not try something different?



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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Governor Tommy View Post
    There's so much wrong it's untrue.

    I agree about token caps. Why pick players in their 30s for the first time when you could look to the future? Realistically England aren't going to win anything in the near future, so look to the future, hand out caps to real promising talents like Barkley, Morrison, Shaw etc. Don't continue to maintain the status quo and pick the 100 cap brigade constantly.

    Also how about hiring a manager who has some fresh ideas and knows how football has to be played in 2013, rather than hiring a relic of a bygone age like Hodgson? Just a thought. Even Harry would be better than him.

    Wilshere's comments the other day were very telling. That kind of mentality where tackling is glorified to such an extent basically sums up in a nutshell why England won't win anything for a long time. It's hard to change an entire country's mentality to the game when everyone seems such backwards morons.
    Poor Tommy, sucks on both the club and international front now

    Considering Rooney, Welbeck, Carroll and Sturridge were out of the last international fixture, who exactly would people have picked over Lambert? Seemed like Roy would have got even more flack if he didn't pick one of the top English goalscorers of 2013. I agree with the sentiment that we should be giving a chance to younger talent wherever possible, but if you said we're going into key qualifiers and the options up front are Lambert, Gabby Agbonlahor and Danny Graham, then I'd be picking the guy who keeps banging goals in the premier league.

    Roy was never going to reinvent the wheel with England, he was the safe pair of hands (yes man) route the FA wanted to go down. 'Arry would have been even worse, you can't just buy yourself new players, even he admitted today in a radio interview he wouldn't of suited International management

    Wilshire's comments made no sense, the guy is as bad as anyone in the league for rolling around after tackles, feigning injury, in the ear of refs if people tackle him too much. Tough on the pitch? give over son.

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    I have to say i'm on board with Lambert for England. He's absolutely class and one of the more underrated players in the league. He's just a handful, but can finish and is nifty at free kicks. And he's also a God at pens, which lets face it we totally need. But the point still stands, we needs to take our best teams to tournaments, regardless of the age group. If 3/4 of our Under 21's play for our senior side I don't care, send them all to the Under 21 tournaments.

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    Looks like Roy's fresh idea of starting Townsend worked on Friday

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    Looks like Roy's fresh idea of starting Townsend worked on Friday
    Yep. Glad he started too. He may not of played in any Under 21 tournaments as I suggested, but he's been in good form for longer than 3 weeks, so that's fine by me!

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    I prefer Townsend in that position to Walcott primarily because he's more effective. It's seemed recently that Walcott would out-pace the defenders, but then have no idea what to do with the ball after that - but Townsend doesn't. He knows how to put a good cross in, he knows how to shoot and he has the pace. Definitely to start tomorrow.



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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATLBrand View Post
    I prefer Townsend in that position to Walcott primarily because he's more effective. It's seemed recently that Walcott would out-pace the defenders, but then have no idea what to do with the ball after that - but Townsend doesn't. He knows how to put a good cross in, he knows how to shoot and he has the pace. Definitely to start tomorrow.
    You could probably get a job on MOTD with that in-depth analysis! Big Al look out!

    And he scores goals...!




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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    I'm sorry but I think I'm the only one who doesn't really like Townsend.

    Shooting 30 times getting 13 on target and 1 goal doesn't do it for me, same reason I don't like Luis Suarez. Give me Theo any day


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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    He had maybe 3 shots yesterday, and one hit the crossbar. You're talking bollocks there mash

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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    He had maybe 3 shots yesterday, and one hit the crossbar. You're talking bollocks there mash
    One match. Plus hitting the crossbar doesn't mean shit


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    Re: Discuss: England should not have anyone under 21 in the squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Nash View Post
    One match. Plus hitting the crossbar doesn't mean shit
    It's better than missing the target from a yard out like Danny Welbeck did. Townsend has the confidence to try shots like that , whereas the trio of Welbeck, Sturridge and Rooney wait far too long to pull the trigger. Taking shots out of the equation, you'd have to be blind to not see how well Andros did and how he gave England's attack a boost these past two games.

    As for, 'I'd take Theo anyday', In 2 games Townsend scored more goals and completed more dribbles than Theo has the entire qualifying campaign. FACT. Theo had a good game for England once against Croatia, just the 5 years ago.

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