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  • BRET HART

    11 47.83%
  • STEVE AUSTIN

    12 52.17%
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Thread: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

  1. #1
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    WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIxXBXXQsKE
    (#1) Bret Hart

    vs

    Daily Motion
    ERROR: If you can see this, then Dailymotion is down or you don't have Flash installed.

    (
    #2) Steve Austin
    Last edited by King Steventon; 06-18-2011 at 07:54 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Ha, I've been waiting for this. A breakdown of each year:

    1990 - Hart produces the two best WWE tag matches of the year. Austin was mostly stuck in USWA without making much of an impact. Hart.

    1991 - Austin debuts in WCW and was alright, but didn't quite produce anything great. Hart produced the WWE MOTY against Mr. Perfect in addition to having solid matches against Flair, DiBiase and the Nasty Boys. Hart.

    1992 - Austin steps up by being in War Games, a possible MOTY. Easily his best year up to this point. However, Bret was in the best three (Non-Rumble match) WWE matches of the year. You could make a case that Bret vs Bulldog was better than War Games. Perhaps more importantly, Bret helped Piper have his best match ever and gave Michaels his best heel match up to that point. Hart.

    1993 - Hollywood Blondes~! Austin continues his solid streak, but can it compare to Bret? Bret was in the US MOTY against Mr. Perfect. Had several MOTYC's with Razor (Rumble), Bigelow (KOTR) and plenty of other good matches with other heels. When you look back at Bret in 1993, you look at how much Vince depended on him. 3 matches at KOTR and 2 at Summerslam. Every one was at least good. As good as Austin was, this was possibly Bret's best years. Hart.

    1994 - Bret produces the Owen matches, Sean Waltman's best match, an amazing match with Backlund, a good match with Backlund and even carried Nash to his first really good match in his history. Austin did some good stuff, but thanks to booking, he wasn't able to have as good of a year as he had in 1993 or 1992. Hart.

    1995 - A year of change for Austin as he leaves WCW for ECW and signs with the WWE. As a result, he didn't really do much in terms of quality. Bret had two great MOTYC's with Diesel (Including my pick for Nash's best match ever) and other good matches with Kane and Pierre. Hart.

    1996 - Even though Bret was involved in Austin's best match of the year, Hart taking so much time off allowed Austin to put on one solid match after another on PPV. It's enough to give him his first win. Austin.

    1997 - Both man's best match was against each other at WM. They were also both involved in the runner up for WWE MOTY at Canadian Stampede. In addition to that, they both missed roughly the same amount of time due to injuries. It comes down to Austin's best non-Bret match against Bret's best non-Austin match. Personally, I consider Bret vs Taker better than anything else Austin did in 1997 (Excluding Hart matches). Hart.

    1998 - Hart being in WCW killed him. Austin was the man in 1998. Austin.

    1999 - Austin wasn't as good as he was in 1998, but still produced a couple of good matches. For Bret, all he really has is the great carry job by Benoit. Austin.

    7-3 with Hart winning. If you need more evidence, Austin's best singles match was obviously against Hart at WM 13. However, thanks to the Owen cage match, can you say the same about Hart?

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Can't really sum it up much better than Jim did. Austin is a great wrestler, one of my favourites ever, but Bret was better throughout the 90's thanks to having more great matches and having more better years. Austin was easily a better character and at his best was as good as Bret, no doubt. But Bret was at his best for a lot longer than Austin was.

    Bret.







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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Two of my all time favorites but Hart takes it for me.

    Spoiler:


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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    I just watched the Austin vs Dustin match from HH '91 I posted in the opening, and it is really, really good.

    I will think about this more tomorrow, but initially I am leaning towards Austin.

  6. #6

    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    I just watched the Austin vs Dustin match from HH '91 I posted in the opening, and it is really, really good.
    Really? I thought the match was pretty dull and didn't do anything to make it stand out from any free TV match. But eh, I know you're a big Rhodes fan. Personally, I find him to be great when it comes to tag matches, not single matches in the early 90's.

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    There were a few too many restholds, but I thought they built to the later parts of the match really well. Austin was pretty vicious with the way he busted Dustin open, and Dustin getting payback near the end was great, and the final minutes were really good even if that sort of time limit draw finish is done to death. Didn't think it was up there with either guy's best but it was very good, and showed both guys could go from as early as '91.

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    I think Bret was a slightly better wrestler, but Austin is better overall because he owns Bret on the mic, has more charisma, and had a better character.

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    This thread is getting NO LOVE.

    Austin clearly has Bret beat when we look at the extra-curricular stuff such as promos, drawing power, influence, etc. but was he the better worker through the decade? I will give my take the same way Jim did...

    1990 - Hart, but pretty much by default. Austin was kind of nowhere to be seen, whereas the HF had several really good matches.

    1991 - Close... Austin inly just broke out and didn't have much outside the Rhodes match. Then again I think Bret vs Hennig from this year is so overated, but I liked some of Bret's other matches... Coin toss

    1992 - Bret vs Flair was really good even though I think Bret actually brought it down a lot (he works Flair's arm for like 10 minutes before going for the legs...) but Bret vs Michaels and Bret vs Piper rule. The Summerslam match is als one of the most overated matches in WWE history, but I can't hold it agaisnt Bret too much considering he was wrestling a guy off his face. Austin was in the Dangerous Alliance, which pretty much kills Bret's year, the WarGames match is one of the best matches ever, and Austin had several great tags against Dustin/Windham with various partners. Austin.

    1993 - Unlike '91, Bret vs Hennig is legit great, Bret vs Razor and Yoko are very good and Bret vs Lawler fued was awesome. There were a couple real good Blondes tags, but that's not enough. Bret.

    1994 - Austin vs Steamboat matches were great and I love the Thunderdome Cage match, but '94 might be Bret's best year. Bret vs Owen, Bret vs Waltman, Bret vs Backlund, Bret vs Diesel KOTR, Bret vs Yoko. Bret.

    1995 - Austin went to ECW, not really the place for quality wrestling, though he did have good matches with Whipwreck and Sandman. Bret's year wasn't great, but the DBS, Jean-Pierra and Nash match(es) make it his year.

    1996 - Austin vs Savio smokes Bret vs Michael Ironman. That is all.

    1997 - Bret vs Taker matches were good but not great, Bret vs Patriot matches were really underwhelming imo. Meanwhile Austin had a better match with Taker, a really good match with Owen and the tag title match against DBS and Owen. This is the point where Austin becomes the better worker and the gap only gets bigger from here.

    1998/9 - This isn't just a case of Bret being absent or having another excuse, Bret was dogging it in WCW. No way around it. Austin vs Foley/Rock/HHH/Vince were all great, but he'd win here without them just through not being a lazy bag of crap.

    I'd shake them out fairly evenly overall, however the years where Austin beats Bret, he beats him substaintially (Dangerous Alliance shit is go great, '98/9) whereas even in the years Bret was great and better, Austin still produced some quality, even in his trip to ECW. And I can't say Austin ever dogged it like Bret did in WCW.

    With all that, I go Austin. I love Bret but think he gets the rose-tinted glasses treatment and is overated because he was marketed as a "real wrestler" and people bought the hype. There are plenty of big Hart matches that are famous and popular that I think don't hold up well. On the other side of the coin, Austin in WCW specifically doesn't get hyped nearly as much because WWE tends to ignore that period, and therefore there are a lot of really good Austin hidden gems that get no talk. Then you factor in drawing, influence, etc....

  10. #10

    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    Bret's year wasn't great, but the DBS, Jean-Pierra and Nash match(es) make it his year.
    You're not the first to mention this, but I never really understood it. I thought he had a higher amount of quality PPV matches than any other year.

    1998/9 - This isn't just a case of Bret being absent or having another excuse, Bret was dogging it in WCW. No way around it. Austin vs Foley/Rock/HHH/Vince were all great, but he'd win here without them just through not being a lazy bag of crap.
    I agree with you with 1998, but Bret was absent a lot in 1999 to be fair. Early in the year, he had the injury which kept him out of action for a couple of months. Then right as he was going to start wrestling again, Owen died.

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    I'll be honest - Bret vs Nash from Survivor Series might be my least favourite WWE Bret match ever. I'm sure he had worse, but it's my least favourite. Even though I really liked their other matches, and the SS match gets talked up as their best together, I thought it was life-draining. I wouldn't blame Bret entirely, as watching Diesel spend half the match lying around and trying to stand up was probably the worst thing about it, but stuff like that and the Backlund match (which I also thought was terribly boring and not as good as the year before), stop Bret's '95 from being as good as his '94. When I think of Bret, I think of his matches with Owen, Yoko and Waltman before anything in '95.

    And even if he was active though '99, I think we all know he probably still would have dogged it.
    Last edited by King Steventon; 06-20-2011 at 03:07 PM.

  12. #12

    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Ha, I swear we agree on like...2% of all things.

    Personally, I view the Survivor Series match as Nash's best match. It's a toss up between that and the Bulldog match for the WWE MOTY.

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    8-8 at the moment...

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    I'm not going to bother with a lot of words but I think I'm going with Austin. I watched the Survivor Series 96 match last week and thought he easily outperformed Hart. That's obviously not Hart's peak and he wasn't at all bad, but if I look at it year by year as well I find it hard to choose Bret. This isn't even considering stuff that happens outside bell-to-bell.

  15. #15

    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
    I'm not going to bother with a lot of words but I think I'm going with Austin. I watched the Survivor Series 96 match last week and thought he easily outperformed Hart. That's obviously not Hart's peak and he wasn't at all bad, but if I look at it year by year as well I find it hard to choose Bret. This isn't even considering stuff that happens outside bell-to-bell.
    Well that was Bret's return match after not wrestling (Minus a couple of overseas shows) since Wrestlemania 12 while Austin had been working on a weekly basis. Would you expect anything else? Still, Bret was pretty great in the entire feud and helped establish Austin as something other than some random midcard heel. I really can't see how Austin can be better than Bret in any year prior to 1996. Sure, you could say War Games from 1992 was better than anything Bret did in 1992, but can you say Austin was the main reason why? The Halloween Havoc match with Austin teaming with Steve Williams against Dustin Rhodes and Barry Windham is another example of a great Austin in WCW match, but once again, was he the main reason why? I wouldn't say he was. Meanwhile, I look at Bret in the WWE and when a match was good, he was typically the reason why. Look at Bret vs Bulldog from Summerslam 1992. Regardless of whether it's overrated or not, Bret somehow got a great match out of Bulldog when Smith was fucked up and had forgot everything. As great as Owen Hart was, did he ever have as good of a match in the WWE against anyone else other than Bret?

    Austin was an awesome talent in the 90's and definitely deserved to go far in this tournament, but minus the years when Bret was in WCW or taking time off, I can't see any reason why he was better in the ring. Now, character wise? Hell yes. The only time Bret's character even came close was his anti-America gimmick he had in 1997. Even then, Austin was a better gimmick.

    Better character? Austin
    Better wrestler? Bret

    If nothing else, Ausitn has Bret to thank for helping him produce his best match of his career. Bret has the option of thanking a few different people for his.

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    The Hart vs. Austin in-ring debate isn't something I'd put my shoes in cement for, since I don't think in any regard that Bret > Austin is a silly opinion, or even close to silly, but I'd still say Austin was better in ring than Hart. Hart's Hart, and Hart is great, but what I find mostly great about Hart is how he puts his moves together to structure a match. He gets a ton of flack for being ice-faced and personality-less, and a lot fo the times the people saying that are exaggerating, but there's definitely back up to it. He wasn't boring, but to me he didn't really give a lot matches that "little" stuff, and as little as the little stuff is, it can totally make or break a match for me. The absolute best example I can give in regards to Bret is how he made the difference in status of him and Waltman during their 94 Raw match seem such a big deal. That could've been a throwway match with piles of cool-looking moves but they went a different root and it worked. Austin's presonality sort of, Idk, "went with him" in every match he was in.

    As far as Austin goes, I'm not going to say in every single match he was in he pushed out those "storytelling" stuff, but I find Austin do it a lot more evidenly than Hart. The Bret Hart wrestling Michaels is pretty much the Bret Hart wrestling Owen, the Bret Hart wrestling Owen is the Bret Hart wrestling Davey Boy, and I can't shit on Bret for doing routine or unneccessary shit, because he didn't, but I think Austin disaplayed the difference in opponent's better (in WWF, at least). He'd switch it up more and while he obviously had those signature moves and stuff, bell-to-bell his routine wouldn't be too similar in a match he might have had that previous week. I'm in no way goig to even try to bring "techncial" into this, since neither guy was too technical/mat based and I'm not sure what most people consider the term "technical" as.

    The SSeries 96 being a more Austin match could chalked down to Bret's hiatus but I think if you look at Bret in that match it isn't too far off of the Bret of previous years. Austin was doing a hell of a more to make that match interesting.

    Both guys were great in 1992, but yeah, I'd take Austin over Hart. Best Bret single is either vs. Davey or vs. Piper; having seen either in a while, and no matter what Austin's best singles match is, it's likely not as good. But there's probably 4 or 5 tags involving Austin that are better than either match. And Austin wasn't the absolute best guy in most, if any matches, but put Hart where Austin is and I seriously, seriously don't think he would've put as much into the match as Austin did. This is ignoring the weekly stuff Austin was doing, he was gettng good matches out of people like Bagwell and Zenk. If I had to watch every Hart match in 92 and every Austin match in 92 I'm willing to bet I'd come out thinking Austin is a lot better, whether as experienced or not. When it comes right to it Bret honestly might not be one of the ten best in the US in 1992. That's not even a knock on him because I have no complaints with him in 92, or any other time really, I'm actually a pretty big Bret fan.

    Idk how much of that sounds like wirhtless dirbble, but it's typed and it's not going away. ;D

  17. #17

    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    I thought Bret was great at the little things. Bret's corner bump, for example, was an amazingly realistic (As realistic as it is to be Irish Whipped), but painful looking spot. You look back and damn near everyone was either doing the traditional (I'm going to slow way down before I turn around into the corner) or the overly "Pretty" Flair/Michaels flipping bump. Then there was also Bret's sliding bump in the corner against the ring post. Bret knew how to make those simple spots look real.

    I disagree entirely about Bret's matches all being the same. Whenever Bret was booked against someone bigger, he typically worked a more aggressive style and even acted a bit heelish. Look at those Diesel matches. Bret went after the legs, tied Diesel up and even used chairs. When he was in an important match, Bret would do some sort of dive to the outside. Whether it was the slingshot or the suicide dive through the middle and top rope, it was different from his lesser matches. Think back to Survivor Series 1996 against Steve Austin when Bret countered the Million Dollar Dream into a pin attempt. Not only did you have the obvious "Austin is using his former manager's finisher one last time", but Hart outdid him by performing the overly simply counter just as he did with Ted DiBiase in 1991. After Austin's neck injury in 1997, all of his matches were the same type of brawling to me. Don't get me wrong, they were great matches, but I could make the same claim that some makes about Bret.

    Is it really fair to compare Bret and Steve's weekly matches in 1992? Most of the WWF's booking was squashes on free TV while WCW had guys like Ricky f'n Steamboat for Austin to battle on free TV.

    As great as the Piper match was, I wouldn't say it was Bret's best. The Summerslam 1994 match is better than any singles match Austin had in WCW.

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Jim. I just want to say that I love you now, and I wish you would have shown ^^^^^^^^^^All This, like a long time ago. I don't think I've ever seen such a fully comprehensive argument like that from you before and I am really impressed. That is the kind of stuff I am talkin' about man, you're looking at everything in this one and your case on Bret Hart is spot on in my opinion. I especially liked when you mentioned how Bret fought differently against different opponents. To me, That's what The Hitman character was all about, that's why he was "The Excellence of Execution", no matter who he faced he adjusted to their styles, strengths and weaknesses to best them in the ring, and you're examples were flawless with Dibiase, Diesel, and SCSA himself. At the time of my post Austin is ahead by two votes. I am hoping that a few more people see your brilliant argument(that I would say is just about the gospels truth) and vote Bret ahead here. Austin was the better "Character" as you said, and I can see how that makes it a tough decision, but really looking at it I don't see how you could really say that for the decade that Austin was better all around.
    Last edited by The Game Rage; 06-23-2011 at 03:53 AM.
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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    I thought Bret was great at the little things. Bret's corner bump, for example, was an amazingly realistic (As realistic as it is to be Irish Whipped), but painful looking spot. You look back and damn near everyone was either doing the traditional (I'm going to slow way down before I turn around into the corner) or the overly "Pretty" Flair/Michaels flipping bump. Then there was also Bret's sliding bump in the corner against the ring post. Bret knew how to make those simple spots look real..
    Oh yeah I agree, and I didn't mean to come off as saying Bret didn;t have *any* little things, because the chest-into-turnbuckle spot and the being-flinged-into-ringpost spot are both great, and I remember now an excellent one at the Survivor Series 96 match, but I was trying to say how he'd do those in almost every match. Austin's little things would be different each match, and by little things, I mena LITTLE LITTLE things. Like digging a knuckle into an eblow during an armbar or yelling somethign when having a guy in a headlock. That stuff might not mean a lto to some, or most people, but it can be the deciding factor on whether I like a match or not. Again, I canlt knock Bert for doing these same things every match, because it's nothing worth knocking on him for, but these are a lot of the reasons I think Austin outweighs him here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    I disagree entirely about Bret's matches all being the same. Whenever Bret was booked against someone bigger, he typically worked a more aggressive style and even acted a bit heelish. Look at those Diesel matches. Bret went after the legs, tied Diesel up and even used chairs. When he was in an important match, Bret would do some sort of dive to the outside. Whether it was the slingshot or the suicide dive through the middle and top rope, it was different from his lesser matches. Think back to Survivor Series 1996 against Steve Austin when Bret countered the Million Dollar Dream into a pin attempt. Not only did you have the obvious "Austin is using his former manager's finisher one last time", but Hart outdid him by performing the overly simply counter just as he did with Ted DiBiase in 1991. After Austin's neck injury in 1997, all of his matches were the same type of brawling to me. Don't get me wrong, they were great matches, but I could make the same claim that some makes about Bret.
    Again, I worded what I wated to say weirdly. Bret definitely doesn't wrestle Austin the way he would Diesel, and he changed it up by size, but once getting past size I think that's it. Diesel/Vader/Sid would be the same opponent, Austin/Owen/Michaels would be the same opponent, etc. Austin isn't exactly a guy I'd say is one of the absolute most diverse in changing his routine up depending on opponents either, but I feel the difference between an Austin/Foley, an Austin/Rock, an Austin/McMahon, a tag where Austin would be even more wild b/c there's a ton of guys instead of two, etc. Basically I guess what I'm saying is with Bret you know what you're going to get, and what you;re going to get is great, but with Austin I feel more "what's he gonna do today".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Is it really fair to compare Bret and Steve's weekly matches in 1992? Most of the WWF's booking was squashes on free TV while WCW had guys like Ricky f'n Steamboat for Austin to battle on free TV.

    As great as the Piper match was, I wouldn't say it was Bret's best. The Summerslam 1994 match is better than any singles match Austin had in WCW.
    I think it can be fair, yeah. A ton of WCW's matches in 1992 were really, really short, and they were fucking great to boot. And there's no doubt Austin was stuck with better opponent's than Hart, but I'm having toruble remembering a lot of really good Hart matches in 1992 regardless of his opponent. I can think of a handful of good Austin stuff with inferior opponents.

    I'm assuming you either meant Summerslam 92 or you think I said Bret/Piper was the best match of Bret's career, which i don't. Hart/Davey goes down for me every time, and although i think it's really good (for now..), there's at least two Austin/Stemboat's I prefer.

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    Re: WCW 90's FINALS: BRET HART vs STEVE AUSTIN

    Jim does make a very good arguement, and this certainly isn't an easy pick. I would however throw in that I don't think Bret would have been the best guy in any of those Dangerous Alliance matches, either. Again, it's down the environment they were working it, but it's easy to look like the best on the roster when most of the roster stink.

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