And this is why pulling out is an awful idea.

Inogenius · 03-08-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Thousands of Iraqis have marched on the Basra police headquarters demanding better security for their crime-ridden city.

Demonstrators, holding pictures of victims of crime, call for the resignation of Basra's police chief.

Kidnappings, murders and thefts have risen in the southern oil-rich city since British troops handed over responsibility for the province to Iraqi soldiers and police.

In Basra, Iraq's second-largest city and the urban center of the country's oil-rich region, Shiite groups have been fighting for control of the area.

Saturday's protest started as angry citizens took to the streets of southern Basra and walked to the center of the city and the Basra Police Headquarters, according to Hakim al-Mayahi, the head of Basra's security council.

"We, as the security council in Basra, hold the central Iraqi government and security forces in Basra responsible for the recent deterioration in security situation," al-Mayahi said.

The protesters, estimated by The Associated Press to be as many as 5,000 people, criticized Police Chief Gen. Abdul Jalil Khalaf -- who has held the post for nine months -- for failing to establishing security in the city.

Al-Mayahi said the police chief had re-assigned more than 1,500 police officers from inside Basra to outside the city because of personal disagreements.

He said the city suffers several thefts and kidnappings each day and that assassinations have increase significantly since the British handed over security responsibilities to the Iraqis in December.

Khalaf said at a news conference later that "today's demonstration was a natural right of the citizens and the political parties to express their opinions," AP reported.

He defended the performance of the police, saying they had freed 10 people who were kidnapped in the past 10 days and "detained 64 people accused of carrying out sabotage and terrorist operations all over Basra."

The protests in Basra came as the grass-roots cleric whose Mehdi Army militia has gained notoriety among coalition troops admitted many followers have split from his movement or do not heed his leadership.

Muqtada al-Sadr made the admission during Friday noon prayers and it was posted on his Web site. The Mehdi Army has been an active player in violence across Iraq.

The rising crime in Basra comes despite a major reduction in violence in recent months in Baghdad.
On Saturday roadside bombs in Diyala province northeast of Baghdad killed six people in Wajihiyah, about 25 kilometers east of the provincial capital of Baqouba, AP reported.

So for those of you who think that it'll be utopia once the troops are gone, this piece evidence shows that you're living in a dream.

Duke · 03-08-2008, 04:49 PM

i really had a different thinking of where this thread was gonna go when i clicked it

Inogenius · 03-08-2008, 04:57 PM

hahaha I didn't even realize the perverted undertones of the title.

Blitzkrieg · 03-08-2008, 04:57 PM

I've never said it'll be utopia as I don't believe there's a way it can be dealt with period. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have our troops here and let them fight it out than lose thousands more to a war with no resolution in sight. Lets face it.. The place will never have peace. It never has, never will. Why continuously send troops to an early grave? People argue, well.. we made the mistake of going in, so now we have to deal with it. I don't look at it like that. The Bush administration made the mistake, now it's time to correct it, by leaving. I'm not suggesting we pull all the troops out at once, but over time, there needs to be dates set in place.

Dakstang · 03-08-2008, 09:17 PM

I used to support this way of thinking 100%.

I no longer feel that way.

What changed my mind was I thought of a few questions:

"What are our goals in Iraq?"

"What do we have to accomplish before we can leave?"

There are no good answers to those questions so I decided we just need to bring our troops home. If we would have stayed in Vietnam 10 more years would we have accomplished anything other than getting thousands of more troops killed? I don't think so. I feel the same way about Iraq.

Of course Iraq is going to be bad when we leave. But the other option is becoming an occupying force for who knows how long.

Inogenius · 03-12-2008, 11:44 PM

How can they not be answered?

Quote:

"What are our goals in Iraq?"

To provide a stable country that will allow the citizens of Iraq to prosper, grow, and spread religious and ideological freedom throughout the region.

Quote:

"What do we have to accomplish before we can leave?"

I think it's absolutely necessary that we rebuild the country's infrastructure, and government, so that Iraq can become a self reliant country. When you provide people with the infrastructure and stability to prosper in their country, they will accept it, and they will run with it.

Dakstang · 03-13-2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inogenius

How can they not be answered?

To provide a stable country that will allow the citizens of Iraq to prosper, grow, and spread religious and ideological freedom throughout the region.
I think it's absolutely necessary that we rebuild the country's infrastructure, and government, so that Iraq can become a self reliant country. When you provide people with the infrastructure and stability to prosper in their country, they will accept it, and they will run with it.

The question should be are those goals attainable and are we as a country willing to make the sacrifices madatory to do accomplish what you propose.

I think they are attainable but I don't think we as a country are willing to make the sacrifices to accomplish that goal.

After all, we could have succeeded in Vietnam. But at what cost?

Spinoff360 · 03-13-2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke

i really had a different thinking of where this thread was gonna go when i clicked it

We must think alike

Randy Orton · 03-13-2008, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakstang

The question should be are those goals attainable and are we as a country willing to make the sacrifices madatory to do accomplish what you propose.

I think they are attainable but I don't think we as a country are willing to make the sacrifices to accomplish that goal.

After all, we could have succeeded in Vietnam. But at what cost?

so what are you suggesting after devoting how many men and how much money to rebuilding this country to just pull out?

that would be idiotic.

we started the damn shit we should at least finish it or if we cannot finish it go in there til itbecome ridiculous enough that we hav eto pull out and bring the troops home but it wont come tot hat. because looko at the blood shed that washappeneing, now the people of iraq know what will happen ifwe pull out the millitants will just take over like with al sadr and the cease fire but if that stays in place we got enough men over there that can take care of it

Dakstang · 03-13-2008, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambo

so what are you suggesting after devoting how many men and how much money to rebuilding this country to just pull out?

that would be idiotic.

we started the damn shit we should at least finish it or if we cannot finish it go in there til itbecome ridiculous enough that we hav eto pull out and bring the troops home but it wont come tot hat. because looko at the blood shed that washappeneing, now the people of iraq know what will happen ifwe pull out the millitants will just take over like with al sadr and the cease fire but if that stays in place we got enough men over there that can take care of it

The alternative is losing a lot more troops with the possibiltiy of still having to leave later with the job unfinished. Again, I am going to compare this to Vietnam. At what point will it become too ridiculous to go on?

We are hearing the same old talk that was used during the Vietnam war again. There comes a point in which one must realize we cannot obtain our goal. The only argument now is whether we have reached that point all ready, or will we reach it a later point in time.

In other words, we cannot succeed in Iraq without a very significant increase in casualties of Allied Forces, innocent Iraqi citizens, and the insurgents.

Are we as a country willing to accept that? Just look at how popular the Iraq war is today and the answer is a resounding NO!

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And this is why pulling out is an awful idea.

Civilized discussion on past and present political issues, debates, and discussions about religion. Everyone has a right to their opinion, so please be considerate of other's beliefs and stances.