About Stats and Hall of Fame Induction

Dr. Giganto

And are any of them still active? I think we can narrow it down that much. If they are not all Hall of Famers, and some are still active, my guesses are #2 is Ozzie Smith, #4 is Cal Ripken, and the last player you named is Frank Thomas

For the other two, I'm just gonna take wild guesses and say #3 is Derek Jeter, and #1 is Brooks Robinson

Profit

Phil Rizzuto is a hall of famer. Someone pull his stats and tell me that isn't complete bunk.

Danny Diamond

Founder/Admin

These and all baseball numbers are SOOOOO subjective that you could make valid points to yes and no.

I will just use the first one as an example.......


1. What position did he play? If it was 2nd base in the 80's or before then HELL YES he belongs in. If he was an OF from the 90's I would laugh my ass off.

2. Where did he bat in the lineup? Leadoff? Cleanup? HUGE factor.

3. Was their any talent on his team all those years or was he on annual shitbum teams?


Basically it is impossible to base a career and an player based solely by looking at numbers.

Bob Welch's stats in 90 where he beat out Roger Clemens for the Cy Young. (yes, I am still bitter about this)


Keep in mind that the A's had McGwire and Canseco and Eck etc etc


Welch = 1990 27-6 2.95ERA, 2 Shutouts, 2 Complete Games, 26 Homeruns allowed, 238.0 IP, 214 Hits, 127 K's
__________________________________________________ ____________

Clemens = 1990 21-6 , 1.93 ERA, 7 Complete Games, 4 Shutouts, 7 Homeruns allowed , 228.3 Innings, 193 Hits, 209K's


Basically, even Cy Young voters can make numbers look any way you want. Welch was on one of the best offenses of all time and happened to squeak out 6 more wins and a cheap Cy Young victory.



Also PP2, Canseco does NOT deserve to be in the Hall. He is a shitbag.

pp2

I was going to put Rizzuto's stats up cause yeah, not jaw-dropping. That goes back to the whole "there's more to it than stats" thing we've been talking about.

Answers for the mystery players, all currently in the HoF:

1) Yogi Berra
2) Ozzie Smith (sharp people here!)
3) Jackie Robinson
4) George Brett

I wanted to illustrate that greatness is measured by more than just numbers.

The last guy mentioned is....Jose Canseco. Only way he's getting into Cooperstown is with a ticket.

Since the Big Hurt was brought up I'm going to list his stats along with another personal favorite of mine, Robin Ventura. Hall or not?

Frank Thomas
15 years in MLB (still active, had a couple injury years)
AVG: .308
HR: 436
RBI: 1439
SB: 32
Fld %: .991 (and people call him a hack at first base!)
2-time AL MVP
At least 1 batting title I can recall

Robin Ventura
16 years in MLB (still listed as active, but I think he's retired as of this year)
AVG: 267
HR: 294
RBI: 1182
SB: 24
Fld %: .963


Thomas has quietly put together some very solid numbers. That's the problem though, the quiet part. He'd just as soon take a walk or spray a line drive into right field than hit one out, and many people had a hard time reconciling that for a long time. I think he'll make it eventually, but its going to take several ballots.

Ventura was one of the most clutch players I'd ever seen. He was Mr. Grand Slam, I remember him hitting two in one game against Texas back in the mid 90s. He had amazing range at 3B and won gold gloves in spite of having a lot of errors. Thing was, he made errors on balls most guys couldn't even get to. His numbers are anything but flashy, but then again its not just the numbers. I personally think (having watched both of them play) Ventura is more deserving of Cooperstown than Thomas. Again, stats don't tell the whole story.

pp2

Yeah Simon, that's my point and why I listed suspect career numbers for players widely recognized as all-time greats.

I also agree on Canseco...that was also the reason I posted his stats, though I didn't get my response up in time for you to see it before your post.

I wanted to show the big power numbers without a name, then watch the reaction change once people found out who it was. :cool2:

Dr. Giganto

Shit...jackie Robinson was my second guess after Jeter...

And canseco was my guess for #5, but i thought it was Big Hurt since you're a Sox fan

pp2

Heh, I kinda figured that was the line of thinking when you posted that. Sometimes I see Thomas' career numbers and get surprised by how good they are. If he had been healthy all his career he'd be well over 500 HR right now, the seeming magic number for HoF induction.

Blitzkrieg

Administrator

You thought Thomas had a career .260 batting average? Nah..he's a much better all around hitter than that..

He is way better than Canseco it's not close..

I know numbers aren't everything, but all you have to do is look at Thomas' numbers and you have to say he's in.

Did Thomas play in the offensive explosion era? Yes..but this is a guy who was hitting .330 with 40 Homers, 100 RBI, 100 walks, and 100 runs scored in years where 25 homers were among the league leaders..

People forget because of all the steroid BS how great Barry Bonds was too..

Gold Glove every year, 3 time MVP in the early 90's (when he was a stick figure) 40 stolen bases a season, just in 1993 alone he had a .336 average with 46 homers and 122 RBIs ...Now, that is some production right there for that era..

pp2

Bonds has no one to blame for that but himself, however. His legacy in MLB will forever revolve around steroids and cheating. A local radio host made an analogy once. If you were going to attend a banquet of all-time baseball greats, Bonds would have been there. Statistically speaking, in the last 8 years he's moved from a back table by the kitchen to the head table next to the likes of Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle etc. But he did it by taking steroids, so does it really count? Personally I think not, and I think it erases anything he did prior as well.

As far as Thomas goes, he was the first (and I believe still the only) player to record 100 walks, 100 hits, 100 RBI, 100 runs scored, 20 HR, and hit .300 in each of his first 7 full seasons. In his 8th year he reached all those milestones except batting average, where it dipped down to .265. That was the beginning of what we out here call the "Bad Frank" years...referring to attitude rather than ability. Something else to consider as well...even though the guy is built like a house, no way he's ever been on steroids. Especially since he was a puffy marshmallow during his "Bad Frank" years, grossly out of shape. The guy just has great natural hitting ability.

Ok, one more fun "HoF or Not?" entry...dig the following stats:

12 years in MLB
AVG: .221
HR: 96
RBI: 335
SB: 24
Fld %: .992

Batted .071 in 1987.

Danny Diamond

Founder/Admin

Ron Karkovice