This is a discussion on Brock Lesnar Post UFC 91 Discussion within the MMA - Mixed Martial Arts forums, part of the Sports Forums category; First off, I'd like to point out that I'm not a hater. I have pretty much no problem with a ...
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First off, I'd like to point out that I'm not a hater. I have pretty much no problem with a former professional wrestler in MMA. One of my favorite fighters is Sakuraba, who had the same background.
Where I have some issue is how the UFC has used him. Pushed him, as it were. I understand all the logic and justifications - he had a big contact so they had to headline him, it was a good business move, the weight class is barren, the win over Couture justified everything - but I just don't like that they treated a completely untested guy in a manner in which they don't treat anyone else. That what bothers me about Lensar. You can even say its the UFC's fault - and choice - and not the fighters. No matter how well it works for the UFC in the end, even if Lesnar becomes the crossover superstar that the sport needs, I'll still always question that a bit.
The UFC's heavyweight class has been lacking in quality depth for a long time. It was when Sylvia was the champion and it is now. They have Couture, Lesnar, and Nogueira. They have Mir, who I don't think is a top ten HW - his only win of note in the past two years is Lesnar in his 2nd MMA fight and arguably Dan Christison. I don't think Herring is top ten at this point. Gonzaga is, but his loss to Werdrum was bad. Werdrum probably is, too, but I'm not sure he's even in the UFC after his loss to Junior dos Santos. As for Dos Santos, he might hit that leve but one upset win doesn't put him there yet. Carwin and Velaquez have yet to beat anyone of note. Guys like McCully are mid-level and nothing more. The thing is that the UFC had a chance to add some of the top heavyweights in the world in the past two years, since the fall of Pride, and has chosen not to (for various reasons). The division could have become one of the strongest in the promotion but it remains an outright weakness. The return of Couture helps, but who knows how long he has left or how long he'll need off between fights?
As for Tim Sylvia, he's underrated. It pains me to say that, since I really don't like him as a fighter. He's boring as hell. But he is effective at what he does. He has some quality wins. And his losses are against some of the top heavyweights in the game (the Mir loss notwithstanding, til Mir proves he belongs at the top again). Sylvia might not be absolutely elite, but he's right up there. And for Fedor to dismantle Sylvia in that manner was very impressive, even if you don't like Sylvia. It took Couture five rounds and he couldn't finish off Sylvia. Arlovski did it quick and the UFC made him out to be a monster because of it.
I won't get into Fedor much, but for anyone in the UFC to question the guy is ridiculous. He's beaten the interim heavyweight champion twice in an absolutely decisive manner. If Fedor is "a joke", what does that say about one of the best heavyweights in the UFC?
Nogueira does provide a very interesting challenge to Lesnar, if they do meet. Yes, anyone can be knocked out. But the fact that Big Nog has really only been truly rocked once (Herring) in any fight of his that I've seen of his (pretty much all of them), says something. Especially for a guy who has faced some of the best strikers in the heavyweight world, including kickboxers like Schilt and Sapp. Even on the ground, Nogueira can take some monster shots. Its not just his chin, but the technique he has of rolling his head back with the blow. Big Nog has pretty good striking, but its his submissions that are formidable. He's a world class submissions artist. He doesn't have the most exotic submissions, but he's absolutely amazing at the stuff he does. Going to ground with the likes of Nogueira is dangerous, whether you take him down or get into his guard. He's able to transition into submissions very quickly and he's constantly looking for something, even when taking a beating. Perhaps that's what makes him most dangerous, that he's still trying to grab those submissions even when he's getting hit. You can't take him off his gameplan by hitting him in the face a few times. Given that Lesnar's only explosure to a very good submission fighter resulted in him losing to a low-percentage submission that is relatively easy to get out of, Lesnar facing an even better submissions guy is obviously a style concern.
And as for the UFC fighters making pretty good money, the top guys are. The lower guys are not. The last UFC in Nevada before 91 was 86, and on that card, there were 7 guys total making $10,000 or less in base pay. The win bonus is usually double the base pay, plus any fight bonuses (Fight of the Night, etc). None of those are guaranteed, though. And sponsorship monies the fighters arrange themselves and vary heavily. 10k for one nights work might seem like a lot, but not when you consider the costs inovlved with trying to train full-time, plus you really only usually fight once every couple of months. For every guy in the UFC making it rich on his base pay alone, there are a half dozen guys who don't make any better money than most blue collar jobs. If you look at the Fight Night Live pay scales, you'll see guys making $3-5k for their fights...
It's no different than boxing. You work your way to the top. Do you honestly believe someone who has only a few fights to their name and virtually zero credible opponents deserve pay that is somewhere within the range of the top fighters?
One could argue that Lesnar did not fight his way to the top.. but he handled Herring. If he had not, he most certainly would not have been given a shot at Couture and thus, main event money..
Besides, plenty of fighters have been given title shots after an upset win.
I'm not going to deny that he's been treated differently, but he's also delivered. He was given a huge opportunity but he made the most of it. People don't realize the pressure that Lesnar was facing in the Herring fight not do they relize the pressure he is facing now after handling Couture. The man is willing to put his career on the line fight after fight because as he's stated.. he wants to be nothing but the best. I wish more championship fighters would take that stance..
If he handles Nog, he'll be at Superstar status.. the UFC isn't dumb enough to feed him cans. they will end up building the division around him i.e. signing more talent..
Affliction will end up going under just like EliteXC
First off, I'd like to point out that I'm not a hater. I have pretty much no problem with a former professional wrestler in MMA. One of my favorite fighters is Sakuraba, who had the same background.
Where I have some issue is how the UFC has used him. Pushed him, as it were. I understand all the logic and justifications - he had a big contact so they had to headline him, it was a good business move, the weight class is barren, the win over Couture justified everything - but I just don't like that they treated a completely untested guy in a manner in which they don't treat anyone else. That what bothers me about Lensar. You can even say its the UFC's fault - and choice - and not the fighters. No matter how well it works for the UFC in the end, even if Lesnar becomes the crossover superstar that the sport needs, I'll still always question that a bit.
The UFC's heavyweight class has been lacking in quality depth for a long time. It was when Sylvia was the champion and it is now. They have Couture, Lesnar, and Nogueira. They have Mir, who I don't think is a top ten HW - his only win of note in the past two years is Lesnar in his 2nd MMA fight and arguably Dan Christison. I don't think Herring is top ten at this point. Gonzaga is, but his loss to Werdrum was bad. Werdrum probably is, too, but I'm not sure he's even in the UFC after his loss to Junior dos Santos. As for Dos Santos, he might hit that leve but one upset win doesn't put him there yet. Carwin and Velaquez have yet to beat anyone of note. Guys like McCully are mid-level and nothing more. The thing is that the UFC had a chance to add some of the top heavyweights in the world in the past two years, since the fall of Pride, and has chosen not to (for various reasons). The division could have become one of the strongest in the promotion but it remains an outright weakness. The return of Couture helps, but who knows how long he has left or how long he'll need off between fights?
As for Tim Sylvia, he's underrated. It pains me to say that, since I really don't like him as a fighter. He's boring as hell. But he is effective at what he does. He has some quality wins. And his losses are against some of the top heavyweights in the game (the Mir loss notwithstanding, til Mir proves he belongs at the top again). Sylvia might not be absolutely elite, but he's right up there. And for Fedor to dismantle Sylvia in that manner was very impressive, even if you don't like Sylvia. It took Couture five rounds and he couldn't finish off Sylvia. Arlovski did it quick and the UFC made him out to be a monster because of it.
I won't get into Fedor much, but for anyone in the UFC to question the guy is ridiculous. He's beaten the interim heavyweight champion twice in an absolutely decisive manner. If Fedor is "a joke", what does that say about one of the best heavyweights in the UFC?
Nogueira does provide a very interesting challenge to Lesnar, if they do meet. Yes, anyone can be knocked out. But the fact that Big Nog has really only been truly rocked once (Herring) in any fight of his that I've seen of his (pretty much all of them), says something. Especially for a guy who has faced some of the best strikers in the heavyweight world, including kickboxers like Schilt and Sapp. Even on the ground, Nogueira can take some monster shots. Its not just his chin, but the technique he has of rolling his head back with the blow. Big Nog has pretty good striking, but its his submissions that are formidable. He's a world class submissions artist. He doesn't have the most exotic submissions, but he's absolutely amazing at the stuff he does. Going to ground with the likes of Nogueira is dangerous, whether you take him down or get into his guard. He's able to transition into submissions very quickly and he's constantly looking for something, even when taking a beating. Perhaps that's what makes him most dangerous, that he's still trying to grab those submissions even when he's getting hit. You can't take him off his gameplan by hitting him in the face a few times. Given that Lesnar's only explosure to a very good submission fighter resulted in him losing to a low-percentage submission that is relatively easy to get out of, Lesnar facing an even better submissions guy is obviously a style concern.
And as for the UFC fighters making pretty good money, the top guys are. The lower guys are not. The last UFC in Nevada before 91 was 86, and on that card, there were 7 guys total making $10,000 or less in base pay. The win bonus is usually double the base pay, plus any fight bonuses (Fight of the Night, etc). None of those are guaranteed, though. And sponsorship monies the fighters arrange themselves and vary heavily. 10k for one nights work might seem like a lot, but not when you consider the costs inovlved with trying to train full-time, plus you really only usually fight once every couple of months. For every guy in the UFC making it rich on his base pay alone, there are a half dozen guys who don't make any better money than most blue collar jobs. If you look at the Fight Night Live pay scales, you'll see guys making $3-5k for their fights...
This is the best mma post in WC. Well done.
As far as Brock getting a Title shot so early, it has happened before. Gonzaga got a title shot right after he beat Cro Cop. Can't really blame Dana on this tho. There's really not too many to choose from in HW division.
I agree Narc. I also repped him. Good stuff there by BigPapa (Name change to Big Papa would be better )
So Blitz sorta answered my question.........I think.
From what I gathered it was nothing more than I suspected? Lesnar = ratings ?
Bigpapa42 is a handle I use all the time since Big Papa is usually taken on most boards. I'm definitely not against a name change, if that's possible.
And yes, Lesnar basically equaled ratings. You can credit a thin heavyweight division at least partly, but the basic business behind it is that Lesnar is a name that appeals to non-fans who might be interested enough to buy a PPV based on the interest factor. Just like a ton of people tuned in to watch Kimbo Slice on CBS, because they knew the name for his non-MMA exploits. The situations are different in many many ways, but the basic business logic is the same.
Lesnar can give the UFC the kind of crossover star that they really haven't had yet. Chuck Liddell started to do it, but never quite got there into the mainstream. Lesnar might.
If he handles Nog, he'll be at Superstar status.. the UFC isn't dumb enough to feed him cans. they will end up building the division around him i.e. signing more talent..
Affliction will end up going under just like EliteXC
Affliction going under doesn't help UFCs cause with signing heavyweights, a lot of them have had there chance to go to the UFC and have decided against it or like Arlovski have had bad expriances with the UFC. While I'm not going to say he'll beat Nog but after that whats left is Herring, Mir and Gonzaga.
If he wants to be the best he has to beat the best, fact is that the best (Arlovski,Kharitonov,Barnett, Fedor and to a lesser extent rising guys like Overeem and Roy Nelson) probably have little to no chance of going and signing with Dana White. Ill hand it to Dana if he can ever build a Heavyweight divsion, but when has he ever shown that he could?
He's shown quite a bit. Maybe not heavyweights.. but Dana has shown that he knows what's best for his business.. the UFC isn't in such a nice financial standing without reason.. I have no reason to doubt him. Also, if Affliction folds which isn't unlikely, a lot of their heavyweights are going to HAVE to consider UFC if they want to make anything.. Not everyone is Fedor status.
He's shown quite a bit. Maybe not heavyweights.. but Dana has shown that he knows what's best for his business.. the UFC isn't in such a nice financial standing without reason.. I have no reason to doubt him. Also, if Affliction folds which isn't unlikely, a lot of their heavyweights are going to HAVE to consider UFC if they want to make anything.. Not everyone is Fedor status.
As long as there are promotions in Japan that can afford to put on shows, there are always going to be options. And Japan is still a very appealing one.
There are rumors that DREAM is in some financial trouble. But they co-promote with K-1, and K-1 is loaded. So I don't know how much of a concern it really is. The bigger Japanese promotions pay pretty damned well, even if they lack the stability of the UFC at this point in the time.
Where fighting in Japan gets really intriguing for fighters is the sponsorships. There is so much money that can be made in the Japan through sponsorships, compared to the US. There are fighters in Japan sponsored by companies like Nike and Reebok. Fighters can get some mainstream companies to be sponsors, which just doesn't happen over here yet.
There is also the whole lack of steroid testing, which might appeal to a few fighters.
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