Bryan Danielson - Already one of the best ever?

King Steventon · 01-29-2009, 10:43 AM

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype>I got thinking about American Dragon after his FWH against Morishima and I think there is a legit case for him being one of the best <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1></st1></st1:country-region>US workers ever already. Wait, I have reasons! Well, I have a lot, but I'll mention two in particular.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Csteven%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmso html1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style> Firstly, I would say there is a case for Dragon being one of most adaptable wrestlers ever. He can literally do anything and everything you could want in a wrestler. He can go on the mat, he can strike, he can chain wrestling, he can hit high spots, he can have hardcore matches, he can be a veteran or the up-and-comer, the underdog or the dominator, heel or face, short matches or long matches, he can carry a pile of crap to a good match, etc etc etc. EVERYTHING. The man is constantly improving: he only went on the mat, he changed his style and broadened his moveset; he had no charisma, he got a fucking boatload of it and became an epic heel; he didn't have the look, he got fresh attire and a whole new look. Unlike Punk, I could see Danielson doing very well in any company. Not meaning I think he'd main event WWE PPV or anything, but he could adapt his style a hell of a lot more and become a good worker there.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Csteven%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmso html1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"></o:smarttagtype><style>  </style> Secondly, match quality, or moreso, the quantity of quality. Thinking of great wrestlers, I am struggling to think of that many who have as many actively great matches as Danielson to their name. I’m a huge Bret Hart fan, but if you take away his, say, top 10 matches, you aren’t left with a hell of a lot of greatness. Whilest I would no doubt take Bret’s best over Danielson’s best, Danielson has MORE great matches to his name. The only ones who I can think of who are in the same league as Danielson when it comes to shear quanity of great matches are Flair, Austin, Rock, Benoit, Angle, Michaels, Undertaker and Eddie. Eight wrestlers. Ever. Let me know if you think I’ve missed someone out there. More great matches than the likes of Sting, Hogan, HHH, Hennig, Owen, Vader, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Anderson</st1></st1:city>, Foley, etc etc. If Joe was also still in ROH and producing great matches at same rate as he was in 2005, I think there'd be good case for him too.

So… Bryan Danielson….. best in the world today (by a considerably wide margin), but also one of the best ever?

BDK · 01-29-2009, 10:45 AM

Of course a lot of people aren't going to agree because everyone has different criteria for someone to be "the best".

Personally, if we're talking about in-ring performance, then I may have to agree. It is quite the bold statement though.

King Steventon · 01-29-2009, 10:50 AM

I'm just awaiting the always-retarded response of "he hasn't wrestled for a big company therefore he is not good". I would agree that considering something on a larger scale than the indy scene is certainly a criteria for such status, though.

Notice how I am talking purely about in-ring ability here.

BDK · 01-29-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Steventon
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I'm just awaiting the always-retarded response of "he hasn't wrestled for a big company therefore he is not good".

Yeah, that's inevitable.

Capone · 01-29-2009, 11:52 AM

Meh, his match with Shima was great but was nothing compared to Strong/Stevens or what the match had potiential to be. I personally am getting tired of the .... riding Danielson is getting when he had one or two MOTYC last year against Nigel and KENTA while guys like Strong as well as the two mentioned before were busting everything out of their asses. The guy is wildly popular and has the look if he wanted to go to the E but fans overrate the fucking shit out of him. Every match he had was praised like the second coming of Jesus for crying outloud!

King Steventon · 01-29-2009, 11:55 AM

Are you seriously saying Roderick fucking Strong, Mr-No-Personality-but-OMGWORKRATE, is better? Who else would Strong ever be able to have a watchable 56 minute long match with?

Jesus Christ, Erick Stevens was the driving force behind their fued. Strong was too goofy to take seriously as a heel. Not that I didn't like their fued, though the only match from it I'd put above Dragon/Morishima is the "non-match" from SCOH3. But my post wasn't about that match at all really, I just mentioned it in passing. I agree that it's not particularly high-end stuff.

And I can't say I've seen his match with KENTA last year being praised highly at all.

Either way, my points still stand.

Marketh. · 01-29-2009, 12:15 PM

It's getting harder and harder to dispute how great Danielson is, the guy is constantly improving and to point at his flaws right now would just be nitpicking...and by the time you mention them, he'll have improved on them too. I don't think he had a single bad match in ROH last year, and he had several MOTYCs against Nigel and a lot of great matches.

I can't say anything more about him that hasn't been said apart from he's Mr. ROH.

God · 01-29-2009, 03:07 PM

From a purely in ring aspect, yes. Overall though, he will need to produce it on a bigger level before he would be accepted as one of the best wrestlers ever as apposed to one of the best Indy wrestlers ever.

Capone · 01-29-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Steventon
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Are you seriously saying Roderick fucking Strong, Mr-No-Personality-but-OMGWORKRATE, is better? Who else would Strong ever be able to have a watchable 56 minute long match with?

Jesus Christ, Erick Stevens was the driving force behind their fued. Strong was too goofy to take seriously as a heel. Not that I didn't like their fued, though the only match from it I'd put above Dragon/Morishima is the "non-match" from SCOH3. But my post wasn't about that match at all really, I just mentioned it in passing. I agree that it's not particularly high-end stuff.

And I can't say I've seen his match with KENTA last year being praised highly at all.

Either way, my points still stand.

Maybe Strong isn't the guy who exactly needs to work unnecessary long matches to be a good wrestler. OHNo3z for gettin on Danielson's wagon.

And how the hell was Stevens the driving force in a feud that was mostly told in the ring. Saying Jericho carried the HBK feud is acceptable due to the fact his promo work was nothing short of amazing in that feud, saying Aries carried the feud with Jacobs is acceptable due to the fact he was the only interesting thing in it is acceptable, but how in the holy hell did Stevens CARRY or was the SOLE FUCKING REASON that feud was phenomenal? Strong busted out one of the best promos I have eva seen from him(You can quote me on this) at FIP Dangerous Attention 2008 and that is the only thing mic wise that I could think of that could be considered carrying. You want a Roderick with personality, have him heel.

As for my point I was talking about earlier, Strong may have personality problems but the fact is that he is one of the most underrated wrestlers on the indy scene and I saw him bust his ass in 2008 against nearly everybody yet gets continuous no love. The guy is still the only person that can drag a awesome match out of ROH Chris Hero and my MVP for being a guy that was dependable for putting on great matches. He earned my brawler of 2008 with his awesome fights against a wide array of different opponents. He had great matches with Nigel, Steen/Generico, Ki, Necro, Davey, Rocky, of course Erick Stevens, and a shit ton of more people it's freaking ridiclous how he gets overlooked.

BTW so many of the Stevens/Strong matches blow away Shima/Dragon it's ridiculous. Only Shima/Dragon match that really stands a chance is the MM match that was fantastic and great beyond belief but the Redefined encounter can measured with that....different story for a different day. Danielson is pretty one dimensional if you ask me. Given that I haven't seen his nodq match with Claudio, he can't do hardcore, he isn't a brawler at all, and he isn't the all around deal like you made him out to be in my opinion at least. I do think he has the charisma, mic skills, as well as the ring ability but people need to stop treating his matches like a act of God. Just my opinion.

King Steventon · 01-29-2009, 04:13 PM

Danielson doesn't need to work unnecasarily long matches to be good... he is adaptable to the to point where he doesn't NEED to do anything to have a good match. (odd wording, I'm sure you know what I mean).

It's not so much a bandwagon either, I really don't get where you are coming from there, Danielson has been great for like 4 years now and the love for him isn't exactly new.

On Strong:
Where did I use the word "carry"? Stevens was the driving force behind it because it was about him, the huge up-and-comer, winning the title then having it snatched away from him, and his quest for revenge. You watch their matches, Roddy is uber-robotic for the most part and brings very little emotion to his performances, whereas Stevens was yelling and firing up and making himself look like a guy hellbent on beat Strong. I'm not saying Strong didn't do his part, but he could have done it better whereas Stevens was pretty flawless throughout.

Continuously busting you ass doesn't earn you love, putting together a good match does. Strong, or any wrestler for that matter, can work their ass off all they want, but if the match isn't good, it doesn't mean shit. He gets overlooked because almost every Roddy match is the same thing from his end. Lots of stiff beat downs (not knocking them at all) and some impressive power moves, but not alot else. He works pretty much the exact same way as a heel or as a face. I used to think the backbreaker shtick was too gimmicky, but he needs to bring that back because atleast that gave his matches some structure and direction outside of a bunch of stiff strikes. I like Strong at times, but he is the definition of what workrate-marks cream themselves over.

I'm not knocking the matches of the Stevens/Roddy fued, but my God you may be the biggest mark that fued ever (no offence
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). The Fight Without Honor was pretty emotionless from Strong's end the finish was pretty bleh. The Redifined match suffered from the monsterously retarded ref decision.

How did we get on to Strong in the first place?
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Anyway, let's try and keep it this on track despite the hypocrisy of me saying that after that response.

I don't see how Danielson is one-dimensional AT ALL. As I said, he can do pretty much anything you want in a wrestler. I don't see what was wrong with the FWH against Morishima (he played to the crowd a bit much, but that's such a MINOR point). The Claudio match was pretty much the same deal so if for some reason you disliked the Morishima match I wouldn't recommend that. I don't see how he can't do hardcore. He took huge bumps, bladed to the point where he was covered in blood, used weapons smartly and innovatively. He looked like a man hellbeant against Morishima. And I will admit the guys flaws when I see them, I am by no means some biased mark who thinks Danielson is a guy who puts out a five star match ten times a year.

On the topic, can you (or anyone) name one, or any, actively BAD Danielson matches?