horrorfan_1986

You actually think the Crossface was an arm based finisher?
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Sam

Seeing as how many people sold it afterwards clutching their arm and shoulder, yes.

King Steventon

Those matches were how many years ago? Most of the Cena and HBk matches were suplex-suplex-ankle lock matches anway.

Where did I say anything about his finishers not looking threatening? I said they have been kicked out of to the point where neither is a beleivable nearfall. I can't remember the last time he actually won with the Angle Slam. It is the wrestlers' responsibility to protect their finishers, they are the ones working the match.

The Benoit comparison is totally off the mark, if you watch his matches you'll see that the majority of the time he worked his opponent's shoulder and arm. And, actually the Crossface does attack the neck too. It's all about context. A german suplex would be to hurt his opponent, but he wouldn't fill an entire match with them like Angle does. He also won plenty of matches with the Sharpshooter. Are you even aware of who Chris Benoit is? You seem to making a lot of broad generalisations that are quite far from reality.

Current Kurt Angle is more or less Hulk Hogan-like in his formula. You can expect to see the exact same match from him no matter the situation, you can guess what spots are coming up and when, and you can tell when the match is over and when it isn't. Is he a terrible wrestler? Definetly not, but when you consider that someone with his backstory in amatuer wrestling and catalogue of great matches is pretty much at the same standard as Triple H or Hulk Hogan, it's a big dissapointment and failure to live up to his potential.

He gets praise from the IWC because he was once great and because he is charismatic, and thus people view him as a good wrestler.

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horrorfan_1986

He holds the arm so that they can't try and pull Benoit's hands apart. The Crossface targets the neck and the back. If it was an arm based submission hold, why would Benoit pull back on the neck?

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King Steventon

The Crossface pretty much fucks up you whole upper body.

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Sam

Lol. I'm very aware of who Chris Benoit is. As far as generalizations, I made the exact same ones you did. Benoit got more formulaic as years past. He'd seen his best years once 2006 started, same as Angle as you point out.

And no, he did not win plenty of matches with the Sharpshooter. The ones he did win with the sharpshooter were after the triple German suplexes, and the flying headbutts and all the chops.

How is a wrestler supposed to prevent a wrestler from kicking out of their finisher, if a booker tells them you gotta do it? Or if a booker tells them the match has to end "abc way". Again you can't blame Angle for that. The man did more the WWE in the shortest amount of time, and he hasn't lived up to his potential?

What I was questioning you on, is when you said Angle's not a smart worker, and you didn't differentiate until just now between Current Angle and Past Angle.

Bigpapa42

When it comes to finishers, I actually quite like the King's Road (and I think strong style as well) approach of wrestler's developing new finishers throughout your career. It makes logical sense. Few American workers do that - Undertaker springs to mind.

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King Steventon

I don't see how Benoit got formulaic at all, the last program he worked, the fued with MVP, was almost a masterclass in story-telling and progressively making another wrestler into a star. When was the last good Angle match? Or even one that strayed from the Suplex, Suplex, ankle lock formula?

I've seen plenty of Benoit matches where he has worked his opponents legs before going for the Sharshooter. Off the top of my head, the Backlash 2004 Triple Threat. You can do the suplexes, etc, and still have an increadibly focused match. The difference is that Angle matches seem to revolve around him specifically working the neck with suplexes, headlocks, etc before then randomly switching to Ankle locks in the last five minutes - the transition between the two is more often than not very poorly done.

It is up to the wrestlers to protect their finishers. In most cases bookers wil only decide the finish, in which case Angle throwing out the Angle Slam and moonsult kickouts in every PPV match is pointless. The other week I watched a HBK/Angle TV match that lasted 15 minutes and even that featured HBK kicking out of the top rope Angle Slam.

I didn't differenciate between past Angle and current Angle? I wrote entirely in the present tense.

I am not denying Angle has been great in the past, but these days he is average at best.

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King Steventon

My favourite thing about the King's Road structure is the layering up of big moves. A lower down worker may be beaten with, for example, a Kawada powerbomb, but equals like Kobashi, Misawa et all withh be able to withstand a lot more. It can do wonders in terms of making lower down workers look good if they can survive the big bombs long enough and it everyone comes out looking credible.

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Sam

For the life of me I can't remember, was the Gonzo Bomb developed during the King's Road?