This is a discussion on Teens Pledge Allegiance To Obama... within the General Discussion forums, part of the Non Wrestling Forums category; Does it surprise you. Check this out:
Over at RealDebateWisconsin Fred Dooley was contacted by the mother of a Racine ...
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Over at RealDebateWisconsin Fred Dooley was contacted by the mother of a Racine Unified School District 8th grade student in Wisconsin public schools about an outrageous thing she found in her son's school textbook. Apparently, in this textbook supposedly teaching about literature, one of the books being pushed as a perfect example of that subject is Barack Obama's memoir Dreams from my Father. That's right, a book by a current political candidate for president is being pushed on our children as "literature." It also seems probable from campaign donation records that a principle member of the publishing company is a large Obama donor.
One would think that focusing on the ideology of a politician currently running for president would be a bit over-the-top even for our extreme left leaning system of education in this country. But there it is anyway. The book even presents a photo of the Senator at a campaign rally with signs advertising his campaign website address to help better indoctrinate the kids.
Of course, the very first question that comes to mind is this: how wide spread would this story have become if it were a Republican featured in a kid's textbook? Would the left-o-sphere stand silent as John McCain appeared in school textbooks? Would the Old Media ignore such a story? Somehow, I doubt it. Who can doubt that the story would be such big news that the school district would have been shamed into taking such propaganda out of their school rooms apologizing for their lack of judgment as they do so. A book like this with McCain included would never even have made it out of the publishing house before stories would have been leaked to the press. Certainly it would be national news. But, in this case, the textbook is manufactured without opposition and is passed out to kids without a peep from the usual suspects.
I wonder who's palm he greased to get his info in this text book. I was happy to see a black man, and a woman for that matter have a chance in the presidential election, but the more I find out about Obama, the worse I think of him.
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His qualities? That's common knowledge, and they only listed the basic facts heavily advertised and endorsed.
...and? Facts are facts, are they not? If you didn't notice, those were not your average CNN or BBC political analysts, they were teenagers...
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Yes, I obviously realize that people aren't just voting for Obama due to his skin colour, but a great deal of black youth probably are. That's a probable assumption.
Exactly what makes that a "probable" assumption? What facts make it more likely that black youth only identify with Obama because of skin color?
Do note that I'm not dismissing the possibility, I'm only questioning why you assume that scenario to be more "probable".
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If you think otherwise, doesn't make it any more or less right.
Considering that it's an inference based on facts, yes, one of us can be wrong and one can be right. The reason neither of our reasoning makes our assumptions more or less accurate is because neither of us have the means to undeniably make a conclusive statement (verified by facts, not just more assumptions and generalizations) about black youth, or more pertinently, the ones shown in the video clip.
What we do have, ironically, is the video clip. It shows them making substantive points about Obama's healthcare plan. It doesn't matter how "basic" you consider those points to be, they still have nothing to do with skin color. So in all intensive objectivity, the video presents the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. You can of course speculate if the boys really know what they're talking about, if they 've been brainwashed, etc, but the clip shows them raising substantive points about Obama's policies, and does not at all suggest that skin color has anything to do with their perceived "Allegiance".
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Anti-Obama? I don't recall ever stating who I was for or against.
I don't recall ever labeling you as anti-Obama. I simply noted what the common rhetoric is among Obama haters who try their hardest to dismiss Obama's success and popularity with some of the most fallaciously constructed arguments I've ever seen.
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Obama would not be faring so well at all if it was not about his timing, previous candidacy, those he's running against, etc. If you put Obama on after the second term of Bush or before the 2001 elections, he would not have done so well at all.
That's all just hearsay really. No way to prove or disprove those claims.
Moving on...
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Once more, not associating the two for what they stand for, as both are very different..But look at how Hitler was brought to popularity. Capitalizing. Saying what needed to be said to the masses who wanted to hear it. Granted, there is no Reichstag fire, or half the other things Hitler had going for him..But the basic logic is the same. It's exactly how Bush also managed to have the highest approval rating, which of course, later became the lowest.
There seems to be an underlying point here with the Bush and Hitler references, but since you're clearly NOT trying to associate their views with Obama, I'm not sure what that point is. Practically every modern U.S. president has won the presidency that way: telling people what they want to hear, having the right timing, etc. Again, I don't see what you're trying to say here.
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And by saying all Anti-Obama rants/ranters sound the same; You also need to realize that all Pro-Obama ranters sound the same.
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There's literally thousands of these. Most popular thing on Youtube since rickrolls.
I didn't bother checking out those vids, because I can guess what they look like, and because I don't think they're relevant. Do note that I didn't say all anti-Obama people sound the same, I was critiquing the specific fallacy of attributing his success to his skin color, and I said specifically that was what had become typical of some anti-Obama voices, outside of the MSM.
I wonder who's palm he greased to get his info in this text book. I was happy to see a black man, and a woman for that matter have a chance in the presidential election, but the more I find out about Obama, the worse I think of him.
I did a double-take the first time I read this post...you actually think Obama is personally responsible for that? You think he "greased" someone's palm to get his book used as assigned literature in an 8th grade class in Wisconsin? Even though this article probably came from a right-wing site (no way of knowing seeing as how you didn't source it), I don't think the point of the article was even to suggest that Obama himself was responsible for this.
I have a hard time believing anyone can believe that.
...and? Facts are facts, are they not? If you didn't notice, those were not your average CNN or BBC political analysts, they were teenagers...
Exactly what makes that a "probable" assumption? What facts make it more likely that black youth only identify with Obama because of skin color?
Do note that I'm not dismissing the possibility, I'm only questioning why you assume that scenario to be more "probable".
Considering that it's an inference based on facts, yes, one of us can be wrong and one can be right. The reason neither of our reasoning makes our assumptions more or less accurate is because neither of us have the means to undeniably make a conclusive statement (verified by facts, not just more assumptions and generalizations) about black youth, or more pertinently, the ones shown in the video clip.
What we do have, ironically, is the video clip. It shows them making substantive points about Obama's healthcare plan. It doesn't matter how "basic" you consider those points to be, they still have nothing to do with skin color. So in all intensive objectivity, the video presents the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. You can of course speculate if the boys really know what they're talking about, if they 've been brainwashed, etc, but the clip shows them raising substantive points about Obama's policies, and does not at all suggest that skin color has anything to do with their perceived "Allegiance".
I don't recall ever labeling you as anti-Obama. I simply noted what the common rhetoric is among Obama haters who try their hardest to dismiss Obama's success and popularity with some of the most fallaciously constructed arguments I've ever seen.
That's all just hearsay really. No way to prove or disprove those claims.
Moving on...
There seems to be an underlying point here with the Bush and Hitler references, but since you're clearly NOT trying to associate their views with Obama, I'm not sure what that point is. Practically every modern U.S. president has one the presidency that way: telling people what they want to hear, having the right timing, etc. Again, I don't see what you're trying to say here.
I didn't bother checking out those vids, because I can guess what they look like, and because I don't think they're relevant. Do note that I didn't say all anti-Obama people sound the same, I was critiquing the specific fallacy of attributing his success to his skin color, and I said specifically that was what had become typical of some anti-Obama voices, outside of the MSM.
I did a double-take the first time I read this post...you actually think Obama is personally responsible for that? You think he "greased" someone's palm to get his book used as assigned literature in an 8th grade class in Wisconsin? Even though this article probably came for a right-wing site (no way of knowing seeing as how you didn't source it), I don't think the point of the article was even to suggest that Obama himself was responsible for this.
I have a hard time believing anyone can believe that.
I'm not even going to bother to multi quote this, as it's clear we have different opinions, which apparently, makes you right and me wrong...
You seem to be making a great deal of issue on his race, which I think is only part of it.
I just wouldn't call shouting off random bits of information in some youth group "Informed Youth"..Pretty sure most of that was all common knowledge. Or are teenagers in America not aware of 90% of that stuff? Oh, wait...
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I'm not even going to bother to multi quote this, as it's clear we have different opinions, which apparently, makes you right and me wrong...
No, your misportrayal of facts makes you wrong. None of the points raised in my last post (none of which you are even attempting to refute) had anything to do with opinions.
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You seem to be making a great deal of issue on his race, which I think is only part of it.
lolwut?
You're aware that I didn't post this thread, right? Are you also aware of my first response to this video, which was to say that I had no reaction because there wasn't anything to praise or criticize? No, I'm not at all making a great deal of the race issue, I'm making a great deal of people who use fallacious and irrational reasoning to support their political arguments.
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I just wouldn't call shouting off random bits of information in some youth group "Informed Youth"..Pretty sure most of that was all common knowledge. Or are teenagers in America not aware of 90% of that stuff? Oh, wait...
No, they're not aware of 90% of that stuff and it's not common knowledge...which, ironically, clearly goes against you're suggestion that it was just random bits of information. I'm not sure if bagging on American teenagers was supposed to invoke an emotional response from me, but with all objectivity, it just makes it look like your argument was running low on coherency, so you decided to change the subject to something you felt you had a better point on.
Also, your satiric use of the word "informed" is ambiguous. I used it in the most literal sense possible to counter the notion that the kids could not have been informed strictly under the assumption that it must have been a parent or teacher who got them to believe the things they are saying. You're trying to say that they were not informed because the information was random and common knowledge, which of course, you then contradicted later in the same post by noting that American teenagers are generally not well-informed...
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No, your misportrayal of facts makes you wrong. None of the points raised in my last post (none of which you are even attempting to refute) had anything to do with opinions.
lolwut?
You're aware that I didn't post this thread, right? Are you also aware of my first response to this video, which was to say that I had no reaction because there wasn't anything to praise or criticize? No, I'm not at all making a great deal of the race issue, I'm making a great deal of people who use fallacious and irrational reasoning to support their political arguments.
No, they're not aware of 90% of that stuff and it's not common knowledge...which, ironically, clearly goes against you're suggestion that it was just random bits of information. I'm not sure if bagging on American teenagers was supposed to invoke an emotional response from me, but with all objectivity, it just makes it look like your argument was running low on coherency, so you decided to change the subject to something you felt you had a better point on.
Also, your satiric use of the word "informed" is ambiguous. I used it in the most literal sense possible to counter the notion that the kids could not have been informed strictly under the assumption that it must have been a parent or teacher who got them to believe the things they are saying. You're trying to say that they were not informed because the information was random and common knowledge, which of course, you then contradicted later in the same post by noting that American teenagers are generally not well-informed...
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Not aware of it? What do they not watch the news or know anything of what the candidates stand for, and just mindlessly vote? I'm sorry for going out of context to assume that knowing what someone running for US President stood for and there basic views on healthcare was basic knowledge.
Also, you seem to think a lot of the things you say are fact; and can't differentiate your 'facts' from opinions.
TL;DR. This argument is invalid, this thread sucks, here's a video:
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Not aware of it? What do they not watch the news or know anything of what the candidates stand for, and just mindlessly vote?
No.
Again, this chastising of typical American teenagers is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the points either of us were making. You're still trying to divert the discussion to a topic you feel you have a more sound argument over. It's not something I ever challenged you on, which makes this whole line completely irrelevant.
American teenagers typically don't care about politics. That such a statement is some huge revelation to you makes me wonder why you're even posting in this thread, because you are clearly unaware of the political climate among young adults in this country.
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I'm sorry for going out of context to assume that knowing what someone running for US President stood for and there basic views on healthcare was basic knowledge.
...I forgive you.
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Also, you seem to think a lot of the things you say are fact; and can't differentiate your 'facts' from opinions.
Oh, please do specify exactly what it is that I've said that was presented as a fact, but was really an opinion...
Again, this chastising of typical American teenagers is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the points either of us were making. You're still trying to divert the discussion to a topic you feel you have a more sound argument over. It's not something I ever challenged you on, which makes this whole line completely irrelevant.
American teenagers typically don't care about politics. That such a statement is some huge revelation to you makes me wonder why you're even posting in this thread, because you are clearly unaware of the political climate among young adults in this country.
...I forgive you.
Oh, please do specify exactly what it is that I've said that was presented as a fact, but was really an opinion...
I'll be waiting.
Unrelated? You do realize that's basically what this thread is about? That video? Hence my argument about the so called informed youth.
I'm quite aware that US teenagers don't usually care about politics, most of my statements on how they don't and in the video of the YMCA/Hitler Youth kids with gold boots is what "informed youth" looks like, is rather sad. You don't seem to get the fact I'm basically agreeing with what you say, I'm just also adding I believe it's sad that's the extent of an "Informed" teen, and that I believe what they are stating should be common knowledge.
As for the last part, basically you saying I was misrepresenting things..That's your view, not a fact.
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Unrelated? You do realize that's basically what this thread is about? That video? Hence my argument about the so called informed youth.
You've either got a horrible memory, or you're just too mentally lazy to pay attention to the chronological order of what has been posted.
You started off by saying that this demonstration was completely due to skin color. I pointed out that they were clearly talking about Obama's policies, and that Obama's skin color was never referenced in the video. You then say that those policies should be (meaning that they currently are not) common knowledge among youth. If the boys are talking about things that are NOT common knowledge amongst people their age, then how can you possibly make the argument that they aren't informed? (excluding a "they were brainwashed by their parents/teachers" theory)
You chopped up your own argument by trying to make an irrelevant point about U.S. teenagers.
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You don't seem to get the fact I'm basically agreeing with what you say
Here's the kicker: I most certainly do see that you you're agreeing; and therein lies the contradiction, because I don't agree with you. Coupled with saying that we "agree" on a fact (or on what teens should know) is a moot point, you were coming from a completely different end of this argument.
FACT: U.S. teens generally don't care about politics and a candidate's healthcare policy is not common knowledge amongst them.
OPINION (that we agree on): U.S. teens should care more about politics, and a presidential candidate's healthcare plan should be common knowledge.
^Why all that shit is irrelevant: you were trying to support your argument that the boys in the video only support Obama because of his skin color, and my simplistic response to that was that they were clearly addressing policy issues that are not common knowledge for people their age. How does any of that relate to either of our opinions on what we think teens should know?
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I'm just also adding I believe it's sad that's the extent of an "Informed" teen, and that I believe what they are stating should be common knowledge.
And here is where those dreaded facts rear their ugly heads again: just because you think something should be common knowledge doesn't mean it is, nor is it logical for you to base your argument on the supposition that it is.
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As for the last part, basically you saying I was misrepresenting things..That's your view, not a fact.
lol, you're really starting to talk in circles now. Facts are not relative, nor do they depend on perception. You were misrepresenting things, partly by your own admission through non-action. You said I think my opinions are facts. I asked for specific examples where I presented an opinion as a fact, and you came up with......nothing.
You've either got a horrible memory, or you're just too mentally lazy to pay attention to the chronological order of what has been posted.
You started off by saying that this demonstration was completely due to skin color. I pointed out that they were clearly talking about Obama's policies, and that Obama's skin color was never referenced in the video. You then say that those policies should be (meaning that they currently are not) common knowledge among youth. If the boys are talking about things that are NOT common knowledge amongst people their age, then how can you possibly make the argument that they aren't informed? (excluding a "they were brainwashed by their parents/teachers" theory)
You chopped up your own argument by trying to make an irrelevant point about U.S. teenagers.
Here's the kicker: I most certainly do see that you you're agreeing; and therein lies the contradiction, because I don't agree with you. Coupled with saying that we "agree" on a fact (or on what teens should know) is a moot point, you were coming from a completely different end of this argument.
FACT: U.S. teens generally don't care about politics and a candidate's healthcare policy is not common knowledge amongst them.
OPINION (that we agree on): U.S. teens should care more about politics, and a presidential candidate's healthcare plan should be common knowledge.
^Why all that shit is irrelevant: you were trying to support your argument that the boys in the video only support Obama because of his skin color, and my simplistic response to that was that they were clearly addressing policy issues that are not common knowledge for people their age. How does any of that relate to either of our opinions on what we think teens should know?
And here is where those dreaded facts rear their ugly heads again: just because you think something should be common knowledge doesn't mean it is, nor is it logical for you to base your argument on the supposition that it is.
lol, you're really starting to talk in circles now. Facts are not relative, nor do they depend on perception. You were misrepresenting things, partly by your own admission through non-action. You said I think my opinions are facts. I asked for specific examples where I presented an opinion as a fact, and you came up with......nothing.
Granted, I did state I think that there is a lot of black youth that may be generally just interested in a black president. Is that not unlikely? That's just my 2 pence, but I see it as a highly possible scenario.
Am I discrediting those teens in that video for knowing more than the average? Not at all,I applaud it. Is it too much to ask for to wish to have a bit more informative youth? I realize perfectly that I brought up a some what unrelated topic about youth needing to be more informed..But really, how is it that offtopic? This thread was about a video of youth pledging allegiance to Obama..So I branched off a bit about other issues in the youth.
Of course I "came up with nothing". I'm not really trying to nitpick everything you say and prove it all wrong like you do with every single post made on this forum. I really couldn't care less.
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Granted, I did state I think that there is a lot of black youth that may be generally just interested in a black president. Is that not unlikely? That's just my 2 pence, but I see it as a highly possible scenario.
Again (I've been asking you this from the beggining, and you still haven't answered), what on earth makes you think this is a highly possible scenario? What makes you think that it is "not unlikely" that the black youth in the video are interested in Obama solely because of his skin color? What social observations are you basing your assumption on?
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Am I discrediting those teens in that video for knowing more than the average? Not at all,I applaud it. Is it too much to ask for to wish to have a bit more informative youth? I realize perfectly that I brought up a some what unrelated topic about youth needing to be more informed..But really, how is it that offtopic?
Because it's a red herring. You proclaiming that American teenagers should in general be better informed has nothing to do with my questioning of your assumption that the support shown in the clip was race-based. In fact, if you now say you applaud these boys for being well-informed, why did you earlier clearly insinuate that they were not well informed?
It's fine if you don't want to be logically consistent, but this is the debate forum...
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Of course I "came up with nothing". I'm not really trying to nitpick everything you say and prove it all wrong like you do with every single post made on this forum. I really couldn't care less.
I'm not asking you to nitpick, I'm asking you to not make shit up about me. If you're going to accuse me of something, such as being unable to differentiate facts from my opinions, then you should have at least ONE example of me presenting an opinion of mine as a fact to support your claim.
Otherwise, I've got free right to say that you're full of shit, and that, in an attempt to discredit my post, you have to resort to false accusations because you have no real rebuttals to the points I raised...
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