Inogenius

I'm going to talk a bit about why Ulysses Grant and Abraham Lincoln are the two of the most important people in history, and much of the reason why the large majority of the world has such stability and peace. Much of this are my own thoughts, theories, and ideas that I've had.

Many Americans obviously realize the importance of the Civil War. With that, a large majority also feel that it's main goal was to simply abolish slavery. While that is true from a civil rights stand point, it did very little to influence the rest of the world. Technically the last country to abolish slavery was in 1992 with South Africa, however there are still many countries where it still exists to some stand point. As such, the impact of the United States abolishing slavery has done, truthfully, very little. Even in the United States, it was felt on a very small scale as by the time the Civil War started much of the manual labor had already been refined to such an extent that slaves were more so depended on as personal servants.

However what really happened is truly a saving grace for the World; by the North winning the war, much of the world was saved by this precedent and philosophy set forth by Abraham Lincoln's idea. Even the succession the counties in Ireland, forming the Republic of Ireland, was dramatically influenced by the United States Civil War. Many of the leaders realized the importance of staying united, and how it would benefit them in the long run. I don't live in the United Kingdom, but from an outsiders standpoint, I think they were also right.

The real importance however is instead with the avoidance of the internal turmoil that would have continuously reoccurred within North America. It's no doubt that had the countries remained split, that the North would have been significantly better prepared for the real world. It's still even true today. The North has a very established economy, during the Civil War days, it was largely industrial based. Now-a-day's, the North has shifted to a service economy, with cities like Chicago, New York, and even Cleveland, being a back bone for the financial services sector of the economy. By the end of the Civil War though, the Confederate economy (The South) had literally collapsed ... the money was absolutely worthless, in fact, much of the economy had simply reverted back to the barter system. Without a true backbone to create an instant economy that would have been required to support The Confederate States of America, would have always been a country without a middle class -- thus reverting it back to a 3rd world country, meanwhile the United States would remain a country with a strong economy. This would create instant jealousy over times with the Southerners, and the Northerners would continue to hold animosity towards the south for their secession. As such the tension between the two sides would stay strong, and likely continue to mount. With the strong differences in cultures, I think it would be safe to say that North America, would be in a position very similar to the Middle East. Fighting between the countries, fighting between the people, and a consistent lack of stability.

Possible other scenario's that would also be created if the Civil War hadn't been won by the North.

I think it would be safe to that the outcome of World War II would have been different. Not only did all 50 states allow for stronger production of machinery and more men, but it also eliminated another entry point for Nazi Germany. With the Confederate States being a weaker, radical country, one could assume that the Confederates would have either been defeated by Nazi Germany, or would have been aligned with Nazi Germany. Both of which would be detrimental world.

I also feel that California would likely also be it's own country. Because The Confederate States would be such a weak economy, the mass migration numbers of people during the gold rush would be substantially higher because of those from the South looking to live the golden life style. With such a high population and economic strength, it would only be natural for California to also secede from the United States.

That's enough from me.

Dakstang

The US Civil War had very little to do with slavery. It really had to do with the the US Government bullying people to do things they didn't want to do. I had several ancestors that fought on the side of the Confederacy and I am proud of that. We didn't have slavery here in this part of West Virginia I live and that is not what my ancestors were fighting for. They were fighting for States rights and I believe that the United States as a whole would be better if the South would have won.

I don't think that slavery would have lasted very much longer if the South would have won and I feel that the Northern states would have eventually realized that living freely is what America is all about...not being bullied by a government that is too big, that is one of the major principles that America was founded on.

My ancestors didn't like the Yankee government and until recently I didn't realize the importance of why they didn't. I have researched the Civil War and now I definitely support States rights. "Fighting" slavery was just an exuse to take the States rights and all I can say is mission accomplished.

The States have no rights what so ever anymore.

__________________

There'll be no sorrow there, no more burdens to bear,
No more sickness, no more pain, no more parting over there;
And forever I will be with the One who died for me,
What a day, glorious day that will be.

Invictus

Wow, good stuff Terry, its been ages since someone made a thread with substance. Good job.

As for your argument, it is well thought out especially to the stability and economic balance of the United States internally. I think the idea of unity was already seen as a postive well before the US Civil War and the comparison to Ireland although valid in some respects is flawed due to the fact that Ireland is still divided to this day over the Republic, the Empire and self determination. The Republic of Ireland it can be argued it what the Southern states were trying to do by suceeding from the Union as the Republic of Ireland if my history serves me right simply had had enough and decided to form their own country after the Home Rule policies of the UK from Gladstone to Lloyd George. Then again I can see your side of the coin.

Just to turn your argument around and play devil's advocate a little, I would like to argue whether the Second World War would have happened at all if the USA had stayed seperated. The principal factor in Hitlers rise to power was the economy which was destroyed by the Treaty of Versailles and the Wall Street Crash, had the USA remained two nations then Wall Street would never have generated such wealth and the markets would not have crashed which would have robbed Hitler of appeal to the mass Germans. Stressman had almost solved the problems post World War 1 Germany but the Wall Street Crash was the final nail in the coffin for moderate politics in Germany, only the Communists or the Nazis had a chance.

Dr. Giganto

If I had to guess, I'd say World War II was the most important war in the history of the world.

First of all, the war stopped a sociopathic, racist dictator from continuing to acquire power before he reached an unstoppable level.

About 60 million people died in the conflict.

The United States dropped two atomic bombs on Japan.

The United Nations was formed as a result of the war.

"The end of the war hastened the independence of many
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(such as India) and
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(such as Indonesia) and the formation of new nations and alliances throughout Asia and Africa. The
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were granted their independence in 1946 as previously promised by the United States. France attempted and failed to regain control of its colonies in
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." -(I Wiki'ed this...)

Also, it pulled the United States, now the world's foremost economic superpower, out of the worst recession in the country's history.

It led to the separation of East and West Germany, and the start of the Cold War, which lasted over 40 years. This also led to the split of North and South Korea, and the subsequent wars in Korea and Vietnam.

"World War II was a pivotal point in China's history. Before the war against Japan, China had suffered nearly a century of humiliation at the hands of various imperialist powers and was relegated to a semi-colonial status. However, the war greatly enhanced China's international status. China became a founding member of the
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and a permanent member of the
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." (Wiki'ed)

And, it created the state of Israel...and we all know what effect that has had both within the Middle East and on Arab-Western relations.

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Invictus

Good points, I may have mis interpreted Terry's point but I think he was saying that the USA would not have been able to do all the things you mentioned and swing the course of the war in the Far East and Europe had the Civil War not been fought as a a divided North America would not have had the manpower of finacial power to fight.

Obviously this is all counter factual based upon opinions but I must admit Terry's argument has had me thinking all night as to how I can trump the Civil War with another, if I had to choose the most important war in History I would choose World War 1 because

a.) It saw the change from the pound as universal world wide currnecy of trade to the dollar.
b.) Gave birth the USA modern economy through the dominance of trade routes taken from the warring countries.
c.) The Tank, Figher Plane, Chemical Weapons and Machine Gun were all developed during World War 1.
d.) Saw the end of the cavalry as a military unit.
e.) CHanged the political landscape of Europe and America for the remainder of the C20th as the US went from Isolationist to World Police Man and Europe from Liberal to Polar.

Inogenius

You both were able to bring up some really interesting points. The creation of the countries from World War II, as Tom pointed out, has greatly effected the world to extent that certainly cannot be measured.

I have to admit this entire idea of mine came about from a movie idea I had, where the North and the South were split. The whole idea is to create a ploy of what is going on the Middle East, but instead with the United States.

And if anyone steals my damn idea, this thread will be here for when I sue your ass ...and those timestamps on the post will hold up in court!

Dakstang

A very interesting idea. You could go a lot of ways with it.

My opinion is that is that we would not have stayed split for any significant amount of time. The Union Army were the agressors in the war. If the Confederacy would have won they would have had to demolish the Yankee government. The Union would not have quit otherwise, since again they were the agressors. After the Confederates destroyed the Union they would have set up their own government and I believe the country would be more united today than it is now. There may have been a few pockets of resistance fighters but it would not have amounted to much.

The Confederate government wanted to be left alone the whole time. If allowed to set up their government like they wanted there would not have been any war.

__________________

There'll be no sorrow there, no more burdens to bear,
No more sickness, no more pain, no more parting over there;
And forever I will be with the One who died for me,
What a day, glorious day that will be.

Dr. Giganto

Terry, that does sound like a pretty good movie idea...

Also, I understand how the U.S. Civil War kinda set the wheels in motion for the U.S. to become the economic powerhouse that it is, but the thing is, you can just keep going back. You can say "If it weren't for the American Revolution, the U.S. would still be under the umbrella of Britain, and then the Civil War wouldn;t have happened, and U.S. involvement in WWs 1 and 2 would have been more limited, etc.

Then you can go back and say "If it weren't for so and so war, the U.S. revolution never would have happened" and so on and so forth.

I think that if you're going to determine what the most "important" war in history is, we should consider the direct impact, and discount some of the "indirect" stuff.

That said, the Civil War was obviously a very important one. But in my mind, WWs 1 and 2 probably had a greater impact on the state of the world

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Tyler Durden

In terms of how it shaped the world we live in today, and the world I lived through in the 1970’s and 1980’s, I would put forward the Cold War, from post 2nd World War right up to 1991 as the most significant of “Wars�.

The War itself cost the United States approximately $8 trillion purely in military costs, and it also cost the lives of roughly 100,000 Americans in Korea & Vietnam.

The aftermath of the Cold War caused a depression in Russia (following it’s initial efforts at economic reform) more severe than those suffered by the U.S or Germany before the 2nd World War. Parts of the world (such as Yugoslavia) where the battle between the two “superpowers� had caused cessation of localised conflicts, once again engaged in their interstate and ethnic battles.

I won’t go in to the full details and dynamics of what happened spanned over four decades, but suffice to say it’s impact and it’s nature caused, either directly or indirectly the following –

Cuban Missile Crisis
Korean War
Warsaw Pact
Soviet entry of Budapest
British-French in Suez
The Space Race
Bay of Pigs
Shooting down of the U-2 Plane
Détente
Vietnam
Atom bomb tests
Soviet entry of Afghanistan

However, at the root of it at all, it’s mostly psychological and political nature meant that it also bought (for many people) a period of stability following two bloody World Wars.

__________________
A throne is just a bench wrapped in velvet

Invictus

Well, if you really wanna play the advocate you can also put forward the Russian Civil War 1917-1921 as the most important. Had the outcome of that been different, then Communism would have failed in Russia and the Imperical Rulers reinstated, no need for the Cold War at all and the Chinese and US economies would have exploded from all the money they would have saved or created from not needing to spend tonnes on missile defence (US) or through being a capitalist country (China).