A point missed by Conservatives about the war

Miakal

How often have you heard a Conservative tell us that the war was good because a brutal dictator was removed? They say this like Democrats are in-love with dictatorships and we love when they are around.

Because we point out that Bush lied about the Weapons of Mass Destruction we must be in support of Saddam. How is that logical?

Nearly everyone agreed that the war in Iraq had to come. The question was when and how urgent it was. Bush lied to make the war seem more urgent. It's not that we were against removing Saddam, it's that we saw no reason for it come at the expense of America's trustworthiness and our relations with, nearly, the rest of the world.

Matt S.

Conservatives also forgot that Bush screwed up - badly.

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DMW

Please tell me how Bush screwed up badly.

I'm going to hold off on responding to Miakal until I hear from Matt S.

The Dude

[quote:post_uid0="DMW"]Please tell me how Bush screwed up badly.[/quote:post_uid0]
Lack of weapons of mass destruction, possibly. That's just a tiny reason but...

I can not stand Bush. The only reason is tried to make the war so urgent was for his popularity. Now it's backfiring on him.

I seriously hope he doesn't get a second term.

When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fullfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and be taken as prisoners to all nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
...At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
Luke 21:20-28

DMW

We know he had them. It's well documented that he used them. All he had to do was turn them over or provide evidence that they were destroyed, and he didn't do either. The US started pushing for an invasion roughly six months before we went in. Six months is a long ass time and I'm sure he didn't just sit on the stash. He had all the time in the world to remove them, so it's no surprise there was nothing left when we got there.

The only major screw up I've seen was putting too much stock in WMD as the major motivation for war. Now all the anti-war folks have something to bitch about and can divert attention for all the great things that have happened in Iraq.

The push for war was urgent mostly because of weather, and partly to prevent Hussein from being fully prepared to fight, not popularity. Being able to fight in 80 degree weather instead of 125 is a big motivation to go in and get the job done.

Papa Shango

[quote:post_uid0="DMW"]We know he had them. It's well documented that he used them. All he had to do was turn them over or provide evidence that they were destroyed, and he didn't do either. The US started pushing for an invasion roughly six months before we went in. Six months is a long ass time and I'm sure he didn't just sit on the stash. He had all the time in the world to remove them, so it's no surprise there was nothing left when we got there.

The only major screw up I've seen was putting too much stock in WMD as the major motivation for war. Now all the anti-war folks have something to bitch about and can divert attention for all the great things that have happened in Iraq.

The push for war was urgent mostly because of weather, and partly to prevent Hussein from being fully prepared to fight, not popularity. Being able to fight in 80 degree weather instead of 125 is a big motivation to go in and get the job done.[/quote:post_uid0]
Well of course the 'anti war fúcks' are going to bitch about the supposed WMDs. They were the main reason to go to war. According to 'intelligence' reports, Saddam could deploy these weapons within 45 mins. And that was the basis for war. Now these weapons must have been on hand to deploy them within such a short time frame.. but no one has found anything.

And yes, Saddam was a cúnt.. there is no doubt about that.. but look at the news.. look at the death toll since iraq was apparently liberated. Look at the people who have died. Bush lied... Blair lied.. simple as that. They promised Saddam would be killed.. same way as they promised Osama would be killed. All they did was flatten a nation and declared victory.. even though the intended targets are still alive today.

Platinium Pubu

Don't forget that the major sand storms were coming up when they went in too. Also I believe Clinton had both Osama and Saddam but just let them go.

DMW

[quote:post_uid0]look at the death toll since iraq was apparently liberated. Look at the people who have died. [/quote:post_uid0]

There's an interesting bit of WWII history that is left out of history books. At the end of the war, nazi loyalists were taking cheap shots at Allied troops for a long time after the end of the war in vain attempts to remove the forces and regain power, much in the same manner that Saddam loyalists are doing today. Is it your opinion that the Allied troops should have pulled out of Germany instead of sustaining the extra loss of lives? The deaths that have occured since the end of major conflict is just what happens when a regime change takes place. The media is just blowing up the situation to make it look a whole lot worse than it is because it gets them ratings. It's the same sensationalized bullsh*t that they've been doing for the last year. The military campaign in Iraq has been a sucess the likes of which has never been seen before, and these attempts to make it look like another Vietnam is beyond ludicrous.

[quote:post_uid0]All they did was flatten a nation and declared victory.. even though the intended targets are still alive today.[/quote:post_uid0]

If that's what you really think then you aren't paying attention. This was the most 'compassionate' military operation of it's kind that there has ever been. Civilian casualties were at a minimum and we spent millions if not billions of dollars more than needed to use these smart bombs to only blow up military targets. Of course some went off target, but for the most part they were incredibly sucessful. Now we're in the process of rebuilding things that were destroyed and building schools and hospitals that were never there in the first place. We did not flatten the country and we've done a whole lot more than just declare victory.

As for Saddam, given that he had a six month head start to flee, it's not that surprising that we haven't gotten him. I'm actually not convinced that he hasn't been killed. I believe Osama Bin Laden is dead and I'm really starting to think Husein is as well. All that being said however, of the 52 people in that infamous deck of cards, I believe Saddam is one of only 5 or 10 people we haven't captured or killed, so contrary to you're statement, our targets were taken care of.

Matt S.

[quote:post_uid0="DMW"]Please tell me how Bush screwed up badly.

I'm going to hold off on responding to Miakal until I hear from Matt S.[/quote:post_uid0]
1) No evidence of WOMD.
2) More Alliance deaths after the war than during it.
3) Attackers have now moved underground and are less easy to anticipate.
4) Even less public support for the war.
5) Bush's popularity slipping.
6) The Hutton Enquiry here in Britain.
7) Saddam Hussain not captured, either dead or alive.
8) Electricity, water supplies being attacked.

Past live: The Eighties Matchbox B-Line Disaster, Placebo, Hank Marvin & The Shadows, Kasabian, Dogs Die In Hot Cars, The Glitterati, The Zutons, Wu-Tang Clan, Starstailor, The Libertines, Muse, Goldie Lookin' Chain, Scissor Sisters, Franz Ferdinand, The Killers, Wet Wet Wet, The Bravery, PJ Harvey, Kings of Leon, Pixies, Snow Patrol, McFly, Busted, Sucioperro, The Ordinary Boys Alamos, Texas, The Subways, The Boxer Rebellion, Dogs, The Raveonettes, The Proclaimers, Embrace, Annie Lennox, The Thrills, Feeder, Bob Geldof, Faithless, Midge Ure, The Alabama 3, Morning Runner, The Magic Numbers, Keane, The Go! Team, Mull Historical Society, British Sea Power, The Coral, Editors, Foo Fighters, Nine Black Alps, Eagles of Death Metal, Bright Eyes, The Tears, Devlin Love, My Latest Novel, Teenage Fanclub, Idlewild and more. Up And Coming Gigs: Nine Black Alps, The Longcut, The Zico Chain, Stellastarr*, The Twenty-Twos, Alamos

DMW

1) See my second post in this thread for my opinion on that.
2) Beyond being a testament to how easily we took control of the country, see me reference to post WWII Germany.
3) I don't see how the actions of foreign terrorists is the responsibility of Bush.
4) This is related to the only thing Bush and Co. has done wrong, which is basing the war more on WMD than all the other reasons for war.
5) Not Bush's fault. You can thank the media for that one.
6) Don't know what that is, but I'll look into it.
7) Not particularly relavent. The objective was to remove him from power, and that was accomplished. He was even given the opportunity to go into exile, so capturing or killing him apparently wasn't a top priority.
8) Bush isn't ordering attacks on these things. The acts of terrorism can't be blamed on Bush, they're just something that our troops have to deal with.

Edit: I just spent a couple minutes looking up the Hutton Inquiry and from what I can see it's an investigation regarding the circumstances of the death of that Kelly guy. Beyond it lacking relevance until something is discovered during this investigation, I don't see how this is related to Bush.

I would like to reiterate that I spent all of 2 minutes looking into this.