This is a discussion on Do you have a problem with the Confederate flag? within the General Discussion forums, part of the Non Wrestling Forums category; Originally Posted by Inogenius
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Whoa whoa whoa ... YES the Confederates were fighting for State Rights ... one right in particular... the right to choose whether to be a slave state or not!
Confederate flag is pathetic, demeaning, and DOES represent racism. While it may not represent that to everyone, that is the role it has taken now in society due to people abusing it.
No Sir,
we were fighting for our right to secede from the Union.
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we were fighting for our right to secede from the Union.
YES! But do you know why the South seceded in the first place? Because during the 1860 election Lincoln said he refused to allow for the expansion of slavery.
Essentially it all started because of Kansas and Nebraska being setup as territories, with the likelihood of them being new states. Kansas was supposed to be a slave free state due to it being too far North, but because of the way it was initiated as a territory there was instead a vote. This caused many anti-slavery & pro-slavery people to move to Kansas (and Nebraska, but to a lesser extent) in attempt to get their side the victory. After a few uprisings, the most popular being the Pottawatomie massacre, it was instead ruled, without a vote, that Kansas will be a slave free state.
You combine the two, and now you have the reason why the south seceded. And I don't dispute that the South had the right to secede - they did. I don't think it was a smart thing to do. To say that slavery wasn't their primary motive is ignorance.
Re: Do you have a problem with the Confederate flag?
Okay, everyone who says the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism is full of SHIT. I know many people from my school and relatives who sport the confederate flag in one way or the other and are not racist at all. Some of which have best friends that are black, Hispanic, etc. Is there many racist people from the south who are racist? Of course there is. 'But the confederate flag is about southern pride, just because there is a good portion of racists who are southerners and have southern pride does not make the flag itself racist. You might as well just say the American flag is the symbol of obesity and ignorance 'cause that's what many Americans are.
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YES! But do you know why the South seceded in the first place? Because during the 1860 election Lincoln said he refused to allow for the expansion of slavery.
Essentially it all started because of Kansas and Nebraska being setup as territories, with the likelihood of them being new states. Kansas was supposed to be a slave free state due to it being too far North, but because of the way it was initiated as a territory there was instead a vote. This caused many anti-slavery & pro-slavery people to move to Kansas (and Nebraska, but to a lesser extent) in attempt to get their side the victory. After a few uprisings, the most popular being the Pottawatomie massacre, it was instead ruled, without a vote, that Kansas will be a slave free state.
You combine the two, and now you have the reason why the south seceded. And I don't dispute that the South had the right to secede - they did. I don't think it was a smart thing to do. To say that slavery wasn't their primary motive is ignorance.
Lincoln never intended to stop slavery. The South seceded because they disagreed with the goverment and exercisted their right to secede. The main reason was the failure to expand slavery but it became far more than that when the Yankee government decided to not let the South secede. Then many other states seceded from the Union.
Robert E. Lee himself didn't take sides until he was ordered to raise an Army against his own state (Virginia) and he refused and instead raised an Army to fight the Northern invaders.
Lincoln knew he couldn't win the war based off of the South just seceding so that is why he made it about Slavery. As I said before, I can provide quite a few quotes from Lincoln in which he said he never intended to interfere with slavery and that the only reason he was doing it was to win the war.
So this superior attitude that the whole war was about slavery and the South was completely wrong is complete and utter bull shit.
__________________
There'll be no sorrow there, no more burdens to bear,
No more sickness, no more pain, no more parting over there;
And forever I will be with the One who died for me,
What a day, glorious day that will be.
Lincoln never intended to stop slavery. The South seceded because they disagreed with the goverment and exercisted their right to secede. The main reason was the failure to expand slavery but it became far more than that when the Yankee government decided to not let the South secede. Then many other states seceded from the Union.
Reason #1 (as you say): Slavery.
What more is there to debate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakstang
Robert E. Lee himself didn't take sides until he was ordered to raise an Army against his own state (Virginia) and he refused and instead raised an Army to fight the Northern invaders.
I like Lee. He knew when to put the white flag in the air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakstang
Lincoln knew he couldn't win the war based off of the South just seceding so that is why he made it about Slavery. As I said before, I can provide quite a few quotes from Lincoln in which he said he never intended to interfere with slavery and that the only reason he was doing it was to win the war.
So this superior attitude that the whole war was about slavery and the South was completely wrong is complete and utter bull shit.
You mean, like these:
"I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects---certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man. " The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "First Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Ottawa, Illinois" (August 21, 1858), p. 16.
"We have, as all will agree, a free Government, where every man has a right to
be equal with every other man. In this great struggle, this form of Government
and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed."
Abraham Lincoln
Source:August 22, 1864 - Speech to the One Hundred Sixty-sixth Ohio Regiment
"The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested
class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you,
and are as completely your masters, as you are the master of your
own negroes."
Abraham Lincoln
Source: August 24, 1855 - Letter to Joshua Speed
"I believe this Government cannot endure, permanently half slave
and half free."
Abraham Lincoln Source: June 16, 1858 - House Divided Speech in Springfield, Illinois
"One eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally
over the Union, but localized in the Southern part of it. These slaves constituted a
peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was, somehow, the
cause of the war."
Abraham Lincoln
Source:March 4, 1865 - Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address
Re: Do you have a problem with the Confederate flag?
No, like these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
I have no purpose directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
I say that we must not interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists, because the constitution forbids it, and the general welfare does not require us to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable – a most sacred right – a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.
The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.
"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races," he announced in his Aug. 21, 1858, debate with Stephen Douglas. "I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position." And, "Free them [slaves] and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this. We cannot, then, make them equals."
In Springfield, Ill., on July 17, 1858, Lincoln said, "What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
__________________
There'll be no sorrow there, no more burdens to bear,
No more sickness, no more pain, no more parting over there;
And forever I will be with the One who died for me,
What a day, glorious day that will be.
Re: Do you have a problem with the Confederate flag?
No, in my old working-class neighborhood, a lot of people sported this flag in one way or another. I had a problem with it at first, since my mother tried to tell me that it symbolized slavery and continued racism, but, now, I think it's just meant to be a symbol of southern tradition, nothing more, nothing less. So, if people want to show pride in their southern roots, I have no problem with that.
Re: Do you have a problem with the Confederate flag?
I think that it has nothing to do with racism at all. It's a symbol of Southern heritage. It shouldn't offend anyone. People who are offended by this flag ask yourself, "What has this flag done to me?" You got your answer.. Nothing. That's right, the flag has done nothing to you.
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Re: Do you have a problem with the Confederate flag?
To some people the confederate flag is a sign of southren pride and to some people it's a sign of racism. It's that simple. I personally dont have an issue with it at all. I've lived in the south all my life and I know that most people just fly it because it represents the south and the southren lifestyle.
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